Calling All Shoe Fit Savants!

[DrapeCut]

Hi, all!
Some time ago, I posted a thread bemoaning the brannock device's uselessness for determining my actual shoe size.
I always measured a 9.5d on the right foot with the same arch and overall foot lengths and a 10d on the left with a 9.5 arch length. However, very rarely did a 9.5d pair of lace shoes or loafers ever really fit. My longer left foot would always have some heel slippage and annoying gaps on the outward facing part of my ankle. The shorter right foot usually never had heel slippage and my ball joint were always at the shoes' widest points for both feet. Even though the balls of my feet would fill out the width of any 9.5d shoes, I'd have to pull laces on oxfords very tight with almost no gap room (for breaking in) to get a snug fit around my arches. Loafers almost never fit well in 9.5d
Even though my ball joints nearly always lined up with the shoe's flex point, I determined that I should stick with size 8.5d loafers and oxfords, which naturally had tighter heels and would have a wider lace gap in Oxfords. These fit snugly in the store, but after a few hours, my pinky toes would be crushed and each step would be very painful. It became clear that my feert were jammed too far in the shoe's front instead of having the widest part at the ball.
At the same time, sneakers almost always fit me perfectly in a 9.5d with a snug heel, ball alignment, and enough toe wiggle room.
I then started to think about my feet in 3-D in terms of the Brannock's limited considerations. My ankles seem to bend inward, which may effectively lower my arches and make fitting into a standard 9.5d very difficult. At the same time, my most comfortably-fitting shoes (Adidas superstars 9.5d) have a ball width that matches an AE 9.5C and 8.5E. This made me wonder if I really need a slightly more narrow 9.5C than the 9.5D in order to accommodate for lower arches/flatter feet and resultant heel slip and ankle gaps.
I've posted pics of my feet for reference. Do they seem to have lower arches and be a little flat, especially on the left foot?
I'm just struggling to get the best all around shoe fit! I suspect that my Brannock length and arch measurements, while correct, don't account for how my ankles bend, which distorts the fit of an otherwise accurate length/arch combo. Would a C vs D width solve this problem? (From top to bottom: right foot, both feet frontal, left foot)

 

[adrianvo]

Despite what you may have thought - wearing socks would make this easier and more pleasant.

 

[DrapeCut]

Despite what you may have thought - wearing socks would make this easier and more pleasant.

Sorry about that! However, not wearing socks makes it easier to see foot curvature/shape. Feet aren't great looking, but we all have them, so...

 

[adrianvo]

Sorry about that! However, not wearing socks makes it easier to see foot curvature/shape. Feet aren't great looking, but we all have them, so...

Not really. dark socks with a bright background would make it easier, and vice-versa.

 

[DrapeCut]

Not really. dark socks with a bright background would make it easier, and vice-versa.

Again, sorry about that. I don't have proper socks with me atm. Any insights based on what I've posted?

 

[breakaway01]

I think it's very difficult for non-experts to tell much about your feet from pictures like this.
A really obvious question that I have is: 9.5D feels like too much volume and 8.5 D is too short. Uh...what does a 9D feel like?? Many people find that they wear a dress shoe size 0.5 smaller than their sneaker size (true for me as well).

 

[DrapeCut]

I think it's very difficult for non-experts to tell much about your feet from pictures like this.
A really obvious question that I have is: 9.5D feels like too much volume and 8.5 D is too short. Uh...what does a 9D feel like?? Many people find that they wear a dress shoe size 0.5 smaller than their sneaker size (true for me as well).

Usually, too tight on toes. My feet would probably be too far forward in most standard 9D shoes.

 

[breakaway01]

For dress shoes, you need to understand how different lasts fit for a given manufacturer. Some lasts are high volume and some are low volume. If you have particularly low-volume feet (which it sounds like by your description), then just going down in width will reduce the volume of the shoe but at the cost of...going down in width. At some point the shoe may not be wide enough to be comfortable either.

Do you live in/near a big city where you can try on shoes with a knowledgable salesperson? That would be my first recommendation. If not, do some research on low volume lasts, or let us know what makers you are interested in, and perhaps you will get some recommendations.

Another thing you can do to take up some volume is to put a thin insole into your shoe. Another option is an adhesive tongue pad that sticks onto the underside of the tongue of the shoe. You can do both at the same time. These are not as preferable as finding a shoe/last that fits you correctly, but they can work quite well, especially if you already have a pair of shoes that you'd like to try to salvage.

 

[DrapeCut]

For dress shoes, you need to understand how different lasts fit for a given manufacturer. Some lasts are high volume and some are low volume. If you have particularly low-volume feet (which it sounds like by your description), then just going down in width will reduce the volume of the shoe but at the cost of...going down in width. At some point the shoe may not be wide enough to be comfortable either.

Do you live in/near a big city where you can try on shoes with a knowledgable salesperson? That would be my first recommendation. If not, do some research on low volume lasts, or let us know what makers you are interested in, and perhaps you will get some recommendations.

Another thing you can do to take up some volume is to put a thin insole into your shoe. Another option is an adhesive tongue pad that sticks onto the underside of the tongue of the shoe. You can do both at the same time. These are not as preferable as finding a shoe/last that fits you correctly, but they can work quite well, especially if you already have a pair of shoes that you'd like to try to salvage.

Based on some light eBay research and ball width measurements of an Adidas Superstar 9.5 medium that fits really nicely (4" width at widest part of sole), it seems that most 9.5C oxfords and loafers (ball width 4 1/8") would provide me with the correct length per Brannock while reducing excess volume in the heel and vamp. The measurements suggest that a C width could work well. For most shoes, a smaller length (9D) would seem to incorrectly position my feet within the shoes.

 

[DrapeCut]

Based on some light eBay research and ball width measurements of an Adidas Superstar 9.5 medium that fits really nicely (4" width at widest part of sole), it seems that most 9.5C oxfords and loafers (ball width 4 1/8") would provide me with the correct length per Brannock while reducing excess volume in the heel and vamp. The measurements suggest that a C width could work well. For most shoes, a smaller length (9D) would seem to incorrectly position my feet within the shoes.

And shoe size widths are relative. A 9.5C seems to usually have the same ball width of an 8.5E (4 1/8"). Is this not the best of both worlds for someone with a low volume 9.5D length foot?

 

[breakaway01]

Can speculate all we like but ultimately you'll have to try the shoes on and find out for yourself.
I would not trust eBay measurements of shoes.

If you think that you can go down in width from a 9.5D shoe (based on your own experience) then by all means try 9.5C.
For width, usually 9.5C = 9D though of course YMMV.

I can't stress enough that you must pay attention to the maker and the last. For dress shoes, just saying "9.5 C" is not specific enough. A high volume last is not going to give you the same results as a low volume last, and some lasts are wider than others. The variation is large enough that for most people, Alden's Barrie last is a full 1/2 size larger than most other lasts.

 

[DrapeCut]

Can speculate all we like but ultimately you'll have to try the shoes on and find out for yourself.
I would not trust eBay measurements of shoes.

If you think that you can go down in width from a 9.5D shoe (based on your own experience) then by all means try 9.5C.
For width, usually 9.5C = 9D though of course YMMV.

I can't stress enough that you must pay attention to the maker and the last. For dress shoes, just saying "9.5 C" is not specific enough. A high volume last is not going to give you the same results as a low volume last, and some lasts are wider than others. The variation is large enough that for most people, Alden's Barrie last is a full 1/2 size larger than most other lasts.

Thanks! Do my feet appear to have low arches and require a low volume shoe?

 

[breakaway01]

Thanks! Do my feet appear to have low arches and require a low volume shoe?

I think it's very difficult for non-experts to tell much about your feet from pictures like this.

Your description would suggest that you have low volume feet.
Again, if you can, go try shoes on in person. Not by looking at stuff online. Try them on, preferably with someone who knows what they're talking about. Difficult in some places, I know.

 

[JohnMRobie]

Like others have mentioned trying things on and talking to an expert would be most helpful. If that isn't possible information about what shoes didn't work that you tried can give you a marginally better idea - You mention an 8.5D and 9.5D but nothing about which shoes they were that you tried or what lasts they were on since not all 8.5s and 9.5s are the same. I'd also be cautious about basing much of your decision making off measurements someone has posted on eBay and comparing them to sneakers. There are a bunch of threads on here about low volume, low instep, etc. lasts and what works best for flat feet.

 

[DrapeCut]

Your description would suggest that you have low volume feet.
Again, if you can, go try shoes on in person. Not by looking at stuff online. Try them on, preferably with someone who knows what they're talking about. Difficult in some places, I know.

For sure! Unfortunately, many shoes I like (Alden, some AE, Cheaney) are either not available through brick and mortar retail near me or not sold in the US. I'd much rather not buy shoes online an am only using measurements for reference points.
The reason I mention 9.5C instead of a 9D is due to length issues. A 9D may generally have the same ball width as a 9.5C, but a 9.5 length foot would still feel misaligned in the 9. If my 9.5d sneaker sole ball width is around that of a typical 9.5C, then is that not a good starting point?