Bump on the left insole of my pair of Rider Boot

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by guyver00, Sep 17, 2011.

  1. guyver00

    guyver00 Senior member

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    Got a pair of used cordovan dress boots from another member here, and I really love the construction of his boots. Anyway I've been wearing them for about 4-5 times and I started to notice there is something hard on the left insole, right behind the ball of my foot. It's not extremely uncomfortable, but it feels more like stepping on small pebbles.

    So I got home today, and put my hand inside the left boot, and indeed found a raised spot. It feels like a very hard, almost like an extra piece of leather was inserted in that area. Anyone ever has that problem?
     


  2. MyOtherLife

    MyOtherLife Senior member

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    Concerns with Rider boots are rare, Your issue is inside the boot so no photos are possible, correct?
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2011


  3. mr monty

    mr monty Senior member

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    I don't understand why you didn't at first contact Rider and the guy you got the shoes from? :puzzled:
     


  4. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Unless I miss my guess this is because the shoe is used.

    I know it is hard for some folks to accept...and no disrespect intended...but this is what you have to expect with used shoes, to one degree or another.

    I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

    The chances approach certainty that when the shoes were brand new the insole was smooth. Simply because the last is smooth.

    The first owner wore those shoes and the moisture and heat from his foot created a "footbed"...effectively contouring the insole to his foot. Once that happens...depending on the quality and material from which the insole is made...it is very difficult to reverse or change.

    The chances approach zero that your foot is shaped like the original owner's. And equally slim that the heel to ball length is the same. The shoe may not even have fit the original owner correctly. Why else would he sell them? But now the "damage" is done.

    If I am correct, however, more damage will occur...to your foot...if you keep wearing them.

    It is not Rider's fault nor even the original owner's fault. The fault lies in the perception that buying used shoes is ever cost effective.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011


  5. guyver00

    guyver00 Senior member

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    I thought I would get some feedback from other users on this forum to see if other's have similar problem. Similarly I also want to know what could be the cause of it. DWFII answered it very well in his post. I'll get in touch with Rider and the seller immediately. :)


    Thanks for your answer. I'm sure it's not Rider's fault, because buying shoes, or any other used things online have their inherent drawbacks. The boots are used, but the thing is that the rest of the insole is fine, just that really hard nodule in the middle of the left boot. From what I understand, if the cork filling remodel to the old wearer's feet, the lump should just be cork fillings that hasn't been compressed down, isn't it? So shouldn't wearing the boots to compact that area down be possible?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011


  6. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    It depends on how it's made. I thought Rider used Blake Rapid construction---which may or may not eliminate the need for cork filling. I'm not 100% familiar with all variations of this method.

    If the insole is leather and thick enough...say 8 iron...the lump may be in the leather itself. And, as I say, difficult if not impossible to remove.

    If the insole is very thin and/or very soft, and cork is used as a filler, then yes, the outsoles may be removed and the cork replace and leveled, and this may very well mitigate the problem if it doesn't disappear altogether.

    But just wearing the shoes "as is" is asking for trouble. If I am correct this lump is in a critical area and it could cause some shifting of the bones or even nerve damage well before you get the cork to rearrange.

    I hate cork--a blatant cheapening of shoe construction. Of course that's neither here nor there, but it is just this fugitive aspect of cork filling that is problematic.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011


  7. guyver00

    guyver00 Senior member

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    I think the boots are goodyear welt, because I can see the stitching on the top of the outsole (I might be wrong since I'm no shoes expert, but that's my understanding).

    You seem to dislike cork filling in shoes, why is that? I thought all goodyear welt shoes use cork filling so that they'll naturally mold to the wearer's feet. I'm curious, if you don't like it, what do you use in your shoes then? Just more layers of leather between the insole and outsole?
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011


  8. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Blake/Rapid construction will also show stitching on the top of the insole...that's the nature of B/R.

    I don't like Goodyear welted construction...it is a cheap and expedient construction method that masquerades as something better and more long lasting. It is, at bottom, fundamentally a glue job because the gemming to which the upper and wlet are sewn, is glued to the insole. It requires an outsole to borrow any structural integrity and it requires some sort of filling...generally more than several millimeters thick.

    I handwelt most of the shoes I make and if done correctly handwelted shoes don't require much in the way of forepart filling--a little soft scrap leather will do it. If that's not readily available some makers would use tar soaked wool felt. Where one would get such felt is a mystery to me as I have not been able to locate any for many years. But some English makers may have large supplies of old stock.

    I dislike cork filling for the reasons I have already stated--it is fugitive. It is associated with GY welting. And GY welting is associated with manufacturing and , in my mind, with a general cheapening of the traditional techniques and materials used to make shoes.

    Cork will disappear from under the foot in locations where weight is pressing down and sometimes, particularly with soft or thin insoles, bunch up and distort the insole where there is no pressure.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2011


  9. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    this is not a problem - this is apparently normal and an easy fix.

    rule of thumb:

    have the sockliner replaced by a cobbler. while at it, he smoothens out the insole with a special tool.

    been there(more than once), done that, got the shirt. it's not rocket science.

    just curious what ron recommends.
     


  10. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    half-assed (amateur) solutions=half assed results.
     


  11. guyver00

    guyver00 Senior member

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    I don't think going through the insole is going to solve any problem. There are stitches around it, and I think it's connected to the upper and whatnot, so removing them and putting them back together is going to compromise the structural integrity of the boot. I want to fix it, not ruin it. But fritzl's idea doesn't sound bad if it's a pair of cheap shoes and the insoles are glued on.

    I'm also waiting for Ron's reply, to see what's the best way to mitigate the problem. Like DWF says, if it's goodyear welt with cork filling, hopefully removing the outsole and redo the cork filling should fix it. I hate to see the pair of boots sitting in my room, only to be admired and not worn.

    DWF, would you recommend to have my local cobbler to take a look at my boots and see what he thinks? If he can remove the outsole and redo the filling? I'm hesitant because if he doesn't have the exact last it might ruin the shape of the boot.

    I read some of your older post and I have to say I really admire they way you see shoemaking as an art form, and only using best material with handwork throughout.
     


  12. DWFII

    DWFII Bespoke Boot and Shoemaker Dubiously Honored

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    Thanks for the kind words.

    If you read the literature--books on how to make shoes, books on shoemakers and books on shoemaking--shoemaking, since the Middle Ages, has been called "The Gentle Craft." But Rees wrote a book called "The Art and Mysterie." So this idea of artistry and Craftsmanship (with a capital "C") goes back a long ways.

    That said, I don't consider myself an Artist (with a capital "A"), I'm happy just to be a competent craftsman.

    Sure take your shoes to a shoe repairman...that you trust to know the difference between GY and Blake/Rapid. At least you can get an opinion. That said, I seem to recall Rider saying all his shoes were B/R.

    And yes, if there is slippage in the gemming...and often there is when a shoe reaches the state these seem to be in...you may loose some of the fit.

    Best advice of all is to see if Rider will "recraft" these for you.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2011


  13. guyver00

    guyver00 Senior member

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    Had to look up what "gemming" is...and of course written by DWF on SF. I asked my local cobbler today, and it's such a big job that he's not comfortable in opening it up. Looks like I'll just have to wait for Ron's answer.
     


  14. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Aside from the brand new hand-welted boots Ron offers all of this boots are blake/rapid and don't use any cork filler. Ron posted years ago a cross section of one of his boots (cut stright up the middle) and there is no cork filler.

    I am thinking that maybe it is the shank extending further towards the ball of your foot and it is pushing towards the insole.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2011


  15. guyver00

    guyver00 Senior member

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    Thanks for the info. I read some older forum posting and did see that all his shoes are blake/rapid stitched. From what I understand, the insole is stitched to the midsole, and the midsole is then stitched to the outsole. The shank would then be between the midsole and outsole, right?
     


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