Brioni dress shirts sleeve length. What.....

[papado]

I'm not too familiar with the quality of Proper Cloth. The shirts look alright. I really don't want something subpar. Bear in mind, 9 out of 10 times I tend to go with shirts that start at $220-ish and, as such, I've grown accustomed to a certain level of quality. I don't mean to imply that Golden Fleece is the best shirt out there, but they are undeniably well made relative to a more basic shirt.

Now, if Proper Cloth is one of those modern disruptive brands who makes superior quality for a fraction of the cost by way of some unprecedented internet business model, then I stand corrected. But from what I can see these look like mid-level dress shirts with mid-level prices to match. I'd love to learn that I'm wrong!

In the meantime, I ended up just buying the Brioni (https://www.saksfifthavenue.com/brioni-stripe-dress-shirt/product/0400011838678) because I really do love the design and I'd be sad if they all sold out. So I guess I'll update you guys when it comes in the mail in a few days. According to the Saks website the shoulder to the hem is 28 inches, which seems short to me and implies that the sleeves might be the right length after all.

I'm looking forward to the surprise actually.

Last, but not least, I did some research and learned that the most universal sleeve length for men is 32/33 which was my assumption initially. I didn't think my arms were all that short. They hang pretty much like everyone else's arms!

My reference to Proper Cloth was based on your earlier post saying they didn't have the Italian style collars you were looking for--I am not in anyway saying they are the epitome of premium quality construction. I'd agree based on your purchases that they may not meet your expectations.

I do believe that the shirt you've purchased will likely have very long sleeves because you have to factor in yoke width as well. I'm basically a 16x35 (really 34.5 but who's counting...) and my shoulder to cuff measurement on my shirts is ~26 inches so I have a feeling this shirt you've purchased will have sleeves closer to a 37" sleeve length and not sure if can even be shortened to your needs.

Echoing a point by another poster--if you're in a position to spend ~500 on a shirt I would highly recommend you go down the bespoke path as you will not have to worry about these kind of issues and get exactly the details you want. It will take a couple weeks to get it sorted out (measurements, possible trial shirt, adjustments, etc) but once you do you can confidently get shirts in almost any fabric imaginable and with any details (cuff, collar, etc) and know it will be great once you receive it. Where are you located?

 

[hundolots]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful answers and abundant info. To Papado: I know that’s why you mentioned Proper Cloth; I didn’t necessarily think it was an endorsement, but would’ve been intrigued if it were. The bespoke path may be the way to go, you’re right. I am in New York, so I’ll be lucky if I can go to the grocery store any time soon, let alone a bespoke tailor, but it’s now high on my list for when this whole corona business blows over.

Working from home I am now only wearing suits when I have FaceTime meetings and the like. It just doesn’t feel right! But I’ve been forced to temporarily close my company’s doors in NYC and Long Island while we all do the “remote thing.” It’s fine, that’s just life right now—I’m just happy my business (marketing & ad firm) is able to sustain itself, even flourish, during a time like this.

However, any good business owner knows it could all change on a dime. So we have to be cautiously optimistic given the uncertainty of what’s going on right now.

Anyway, that’s more than you wanted to know. Regarding clothes, I generally favor Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece for most of my wardrobe, but not exclusively. Ties these days are all Zegna, usually Quindici and Venticinque, and I don’t think that will ever change. I’ve purchased all manner of luxury ties, but nothing ever outshines my Zegnas. I’m an admitted addict. That’s actually how I ended up on this forum; someone was selling a rare, new Quindici tie, but I missed it before I even arrived.

Glad to be here though!

 

[papado]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful answers and abundant info. To Papado: I know that’s why you mentioned Proper Cloth; I didn’t necessarily think it was an endorsement, but would’ve been intrigued if it were. The bespoke path may be the way to go, you’re right. I am in New York, so I’ll be lucky if I can go to the grocery store any time soon, let alone a bespoke tailor, but it’s now high on my list for when this whole corona business blows over.

Working from home I am now only wearing suits when I have FaceTime meetings and the like. It just doesn’t feel right! But I’ve been forced to temporarily close my company’s doors in NYC and Long Island while we all do the “remote thing.” It’s fine, that’s just life right now—I’m just happy my business (marketing & ad firm) is able to sustain itself, even flourish, during a time like this.

However, any good business owner knows it could all change on a dime. So we have to be cautiously optimistic given the uncertainty of what’s going on right now.

Anyway, that’s more than you wanted to know. Regarding clothes, I generally favor Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece for most of my wardrobe, but not exclusively. Ties these days are all Zegna, usually Quindici and Venticinque, and I don’t think that will ever change. I’ve purchased all manner of luxury ties, but nothing ever outshines my Zegnas. I’m an admitted addict. That’s actually how I ended up on this forum; someone was selling a rare, new Quindici tie, but I missed it before I even arrived.

Glad to be here though!

Happy to have you! I'm in NYC as well--you have the option of waiting for some of the traveling Italian tailors/shirtmakers to come through or you can try the NYC based ones. My recommendation for bespoke is NYC based Geneva custom shirts (however I go to them through my tailor, Paolo Martorano Bespoke). You'll be able have a collar style you like copied or you can likely work to see if some slight tweaks to a collar you like would actually improve the final product. Once you get something that fits you well and is comfortable and well constructed I'm sure you'll be hooked like the rest of us

 

[acapaca]

The key feature for me when it comes to shirts is whether the sleeves are separately attached instead of sewn on the same seam as the body of the shirt. Once you've had one you will never go back and hence why I only buy Italian shirts now. I find it makes a significant difference in comfort. Brioni shirts have hand sewn sleeves, I don't think any BB shirts do.

Think you could say a little more about the attaching the sleeve separately thing? I've been dabbling in some MTM shirts from several different makers, along with a diverse set of RTW, and there is something about the sleeves that I can't put my finger on but that seems to make a very significant difference. (Like, so bad that I don't want to wear a number of them, despite their seeming to have the same kinds of dimensions as the ones I like.)

One thing I have noticed, though I don't know if it relates to what you are talking about, is that some of the Italian shirts I have, and ones that are comfortable, have an armhole seam that is shaped more like a subtle 'S' than like a 'C'.

Thanks!

 

[compuccesory]

Think you could say a little more about the attaching the sleeve separately thing? I've been dabbling in some MTM shirts from several different makers, along with a diverse set of RTW, and there is something about the sleeves that I can't put my finger on but that seems to make a very significant difference. (Like, so bad that I don't want to wear a number of them, despite their seeming to have the same kinds of dimensions as the ones I like.)

One thing I have noticed, though I don't know if it relates to what you are talking about, is that some of the Italian shirts I have, and ones that are comfortable, have an armhole seam that is shaped more like a subtle 'S' than like a 'C'.

Thanks!

I can't explain it either, it doesn't really make sense in my head but it's very much noticeable, sort of like the difference between a high-armhole jacket vs a low-armhole jacket. Maybe someone who understands it better can explain it to me too. There must be a reason that all the high-end/bespoke shirtmakers do it this way.

For anyone who doesn't get what we are talking about, go to DImitryV's guide to CM here and go to the shirt section. My budget for shirts used to be around $15 per shirt, but for shirts with hand attached sleeves I would be willing to go up to $30-$40 per shirt. Brands on Yoox I found that sell for that price are Guglielminotti, Allessandro Gherardi (but only the "Camicia Sartoria" line, not the "Soft" line) and Boriello Napoli.

 

[acapaca]

Thanks for the reply. I just checked my closet, and wouldn't you know it, there seemed to be a perfect division between the higher-end shirts with the 'offset' seams (sleeve seam a half-inch to an inch 'forward' of the side seam) and the others with the seams in perfect line (like 2D). I thought Kamakura had a chance to be in the offset category, but they weren't. Maybe that's a decent proxy for other things?

I'd really love to read that guide you mentioned, but I'm afraid the link is dead. Possible you could upload your copy? I'm really eager to check it out.

 

[compuccesory]

Thanks for the reply. I just checked my closet, and wouldn't you know it, there seemed to be a perfect division between the higher-end shirts with the 'offset' seams (sleeve seam a half-inch to an inch 'forward' of the side seam) and the others with the seams in perfect line (like 2D). I thought Kamakura had a chance to be in the offset category, but they weren't. Maybe that's a decent proxy for other things?

I'd really love to read that guide you mentioned, but I'm afraid the link is dead. Possible you could upload your copy? I'm really eager to check it out.

It's here

http://best-guide.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Guide_to_classic_menswear_brands.pdf

Can you share which brands you own that have after-attached sleeves? There's basically no way to know for most brands. Other than what's in the guide I know forum sponsor Cavour also sells shirts that have after-attached sleeves.

 

[hundolots]

Shirt arrived today. I’m pleasantly surprised that the sleeves are actually a perfect fit! I’d been holding out hope that this might happen. I know I’m a 33 sleeve in brooks brothers sizing, so whatever is lost in translation here is a welcome treat. Perfect amount of elbow room. Just the right amount peeks out beneath jacket sleeve. It’s a wonderful shirt all around. See attached.

 

[acapaca]

It's here

http://best-guide.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Guide_to_classic_menswear_brands.pdf

Can you share which brands you own that have after-attached sleeves? There's basically no way to know for most brands. Other than what's in the guide I know forum sponsor Cavour also sells shirts that have after-attached sleeves.

Thanks for the guide! And as for the brands I own with those sleeves, sure thing. They are:

100 Hands
Artigiani
Barba
Belvest
Borrelli
Cifonelli
Cordone
Cristian Sartoriale
Isaia
P Johnson MTM (though, one with and one without)
Ring Jacket
Viola Milano

I do have two from Cavour, but they come without. Same with Suit Supply and Tiger of Sweden.

 

[compuccesory]

Thanks for the guide! And as for the brands I own with those sleeves, sure thing. They are:

100 Hands
Artigiani
Barba
Belvest
Borrelli
Cifonelli
Cordone
Cristian Sartoriale
Isaia
P Johnson MTM (though, one with and one without)
Ring Jacket
Viola Milano

I do have two from Cavour, but they come without. Same with Suit Supply and Tiger of Sweden.

Cavour's higher-end line just came about in the last little bit. THe guide also says Suit supply's higher end line (Jort?) has them as well, I'll have to check it out next time I'm there, if I live long enough.