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Bourgogne vs. Bordeaux

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by Bouji, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. Bouji

    Bouji Senior member

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    Last night I drank a LR for 3 pounds, a 2005 Domaine Saint Pierre (I made Beef Bourguignon with half the bottle and drank the other half), I was actually very impressed with the wine for the money; it's wines like this which steer me well clear of the New World.
    Now I know a Languedoc Roussillon, Grenache Syrah blend is hardly a connoisseurs wine, but it tasted remarkably similar to a cross between a Saint Emilion and Chianti, which suffices to say, is not bad in my book.
    Of what you have mentioned, the only one, which I remember trying is Cloudy Bay, which I was disappointed with. Then again I am not a huge fan of Whites. My white drinking is confined to Chablis, Montrachet, Pouilly Fumee, Pouilly Fuisse, and maybe some of the better Bordeaux wines like Yquem and Haut Brion. I cannot stand things like Pino Grigio, Sancerre, or cheap Semillon Bordeaux.
    I will certainly look out for the NZ and Oregon Pinot Noirs, and also the other NZ whites that you mentioned, as I do enjoy Pouilly Fumee but not Sancerre.
    Thanks for the recommendations.
     
  2. Zubberah

    Zubberah Senior member

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    I'm definitely in the Bordeaux camp - more consistent, better value, ages better, more complex. Too many red burgs smell grreat but hav ordinary, acidic palates. I must say I have drunk all the great burgundies from great years back to 1962 from Leroy, Rousseau, Lignier, DRC, Vogue, Ponsot, Dujac, Moillard, Meo-Camuzet, Chevillon, Arnoux, Comte Armand, Jadot, Faiveley, Gros, etc (indeed have nearly all of them in my cellar) but you are always treading a fine line if red burgundies are not from great vineyards, great regions (Gevrey Chambertin, Vosne Romanee, Musigny et al), and great vintages. 9 out of 10 Grand crus are disappointing in my experience and it is very costly! Much prefer my 1st and 2nd growth bordeauxs! Choice between a great DRC or great 1st growth? Bordeaux every time. Burgundy-philes tend to be pretty obsessive about their passion, and good luck to them. I don't think you can routinely spend $200 anywhere in the world and get a crap wine like you do regularly in Burgundy. I'm not into qualitative needle-in-haysticks!

    Don't even get me started on the oxidation problems of white Burgundy post 1996. Anyway, Bordeaux has Sauternes! [​IMG]

    If you are interested in a new world pinot that is not only Grand Cru quality but almost completely indistinguishable from red Burgundy, try Bass Phillip Reserve and Premium pinot from South Gippsland in Victoria, Australia. The Reserve is US$150 and Premium $100 but even Parker admits this is new world Pinot at Grand Cru level. I have lost count of the number of times I have slipped this into Grand Cru Red Burgundy tastings and it has flummoxed all burgundy-philes and come out if not at top then close to it! Other great Aussie pinots are Bindi Block 5, Bannockburn Serre, Pipers Brook Lyre and Giaconda. NZ is also making some great stuff such as Ata Rangi. Haven't been overly impressed with US pinot - too powerful and shiraz like to me! [​IMG]
     
  3. Zubberah

    Zubberah Senior member

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    Don't get me started on New World wines.... [​IMG] [​IMG]

    In conversation with friends, they are reffered to as "New World Drain Water". I have had nothing but bad experinces.

    If someone on the table orders a New World wine, I drink Scotch.


    To me, sorry, this sort of elitist attitude is just silly. Take Australia for example: it has some of the oldest parcels of vines (shiraz, cabernet, grenache) in the world and makes sensational wines. The true test for people like Bouji (and I mean this respectfullY) who espouse your view is to set up a blind tasting and watch your preconceived notions crumble. I often slip the shiraz-based Grange in 1st growth tatstings and it is amazing how often no one can pick it as non-1st growth. Wines like Grange, Torbreck RunRig, Giaconda Cabernet, Bass Phillip Reserve, Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay, Cullen Diane madeline Cab Merlot, Henschke Hill of Grace, Mount Mary Quintets (despite what RPJ erroneously says), Grosset Polish Hill Riesling, Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier etc are all world class and comparable to anything from France. You really are doing yourself a dis-serrvice limiting yourself to the old world. That is without even considering true Aussie styles like Hunter Valley Semillon (Tyrrells Vat 1 and McWilliam Single Release Lovedale Semillon), sparkling reds (two best are Primo Estate The Joseph and Rockford Black Shiraz), and Shiraz/Cabernet blends like Yalumba The Reserve.
     
  4. Bouji

    Bouji Senior member

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    To me, sorry, this sort of elitist attitude is just silly. Take Australia for example: it has some of the oldest parcels of vines (shiraz, cabernet, grenache) in the world and makes sensational wines. The true test for people like Bouji (and I mean this respectfullY) who espouse your view is to set up a blind tasting and watch your preconceived notions crumble. I often slip the shiraz-based Grange in 1st growth tatstings and it is amazing how often no one can pick it as non-1st growth. Wines like Grange, Torbreck RunRig, Giaconda Cabernet, Bass Phillip Reserve, Leeuwin Estate Art Series Chardonnay, Cullen Diane madeline Cab Merlot, Henschke Hill of Grace, Mount Mary Quintets (despite what RPJ erroneously says), Grosset Polish Hill Riesling, Clonakilla Shiraz Viognier etc are all world class and comparable to anything from France. You really are doing yourself a dis-serrvice limiting yourself to the old world. That is without even considering true Aussie styles like Hunter Valley Semillon (Tyrrells Vat 1 and McWilliam Single Release Lovedale Semillon), sparkling reds (two best are Primo Estate The Joseph and Rockford Black Shiraz), and Shiraz/Cabernet blends like Yalumba The Reserve.

    I've not tried much New World, so am open to change. I've tried stuff like Lindemans Bin 50, and California Zinfadel, and been well, to put it mildly, disgusted.
     
  5. Zubberah

    Zubberah Senior member

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    I've not tried much New World, so am open to change. I've tried stuff like Lindemans Bin 50, and California Zinfadel, and been well, to put it mildly, disgusted.

    Bouji, I defy you to find any wine anywhere in the world that, on price alone, compares to the Lindemans Bin 50 at that price point! You really do get alot opf bang for your buck with this wine! [​IMG]

    Australia is streets ahead (qualitatively and quantitatively) of everyone when it comes to the under US$7 category (to wit: Jacobs Creek, Yellowtail, etc). The wine cognoscneti can sneer all they like ....
     
  6. pejsek

    pejsek Senior member

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    New World Drain Water? This isn't Wentsworth talking, is it? If I could drink just one wine it would certainly be Red Burgundy. But who wants to drink just one wine? There are scads of stunningly good wines from all over the quaintly titled New World--South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, and, yes, even California, Oregon, and Washington produce wine that is as good and expressive as anything anywhere in the world. And, heck, I'll even put in a plug for that true California gem the Amador County Zinfandel. This is the real deal, the true ghost of the Gold Rush. Alcohol content can push 14%, but when it works it's as fine a thing as you could ever want.
     
  7. Vaclav

    Vaclav Senior member

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    Thanks whoopee. I've got a guy in Germany who I trust implicitly and am dreading trying to find someone similar once I move back to the States. They'll be a good place to start. Tom
    Hello, Moore brothers, they sell to the Corkscrew in the Princeton, if it helps.
     
  8. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    It does, thank you Vaclav. The Corkscrew is one of my favorite wine shops...and since I haven't mentioned it recently, makes me think you've been around in other forms for a while [​IMG]
     
  9. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    even Parker admits this is new world Pinot at Grand Cru level
    This, along with your promotion of Yellowtail (one of my least favorite wines, anywhere) suggests that you and I do not have the same taste buds. Parker prefers New World and newfangled to Grand Crus anyway. I'm with whoopee and in some ways bouji. My favorites are relatively arcane St Emilions and Languedocs. After everything Italian that is [​IMG]

    Tom
     
  10. Vaclav

    Vaclav Senior member

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    It does, thank you Vaclav. The Corkscrew is one of my favorite wine shops...and since I haven't mentioned it recently, makes me think you've been around in other forms for a while [​IMG]

    It came to my mind, because of Landau, you once mentioned.

    Do you know, the Corkscrew moved?
     
  11. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    I heard that, got it in an email actually. Have not been to Princeton in a couple of years so don't know what their new setup is like.

    Yes, I like it the Landau.
     
  12. Bouji

    Bouji Senior member

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    Ozzy wine is:
    1. Sweet
    2. Rich
    3. For lack of a better word, fake

    I don't call it elitisim, I call it personal taste. Give me a 3 pound L-R over a 40 pound Ozzy Shiraz any day.
    You say that Bougogne tastes nothing like it smells, and I totally agree with you. If I wanted the wine to actually taste like red berries and lavender, I would drink New World wine. But this is why New World wine is IMO fake. The aroma, or more properly the nose, is not supposed to have an effect on the taste. This is not wine, this is a flavored alcoholic beverage. Wine is supposed to taste like the grape(s) from which it is made. The nose is just another part of enjoying the wine, in France and Lebanon, and to a lesser extent Italy and Spain, the nose is an effect of terroir, Lebanese wine reeks of Cedar, L-Rs of Rosemary, New World wine seems to have no relation to terroir at all, and this IMO is not even wine. True, some French wine can be a very aquired taste, bone dry, lacking any lusture, but then is that not the case with any fine food? Especially French, take Foie Gras, Snails, Moules, etc.
    In a way, a good Aussie wine (like a 1990 Grange Penfolds, which I have drunk before) is like a Wagyu Beef hamburger, with Pie D'Anglous cheese, and Wiltshire Bacon, its all well and good, but when you put that much money and quality produce into it, who wants to eat a Hamburger?
    Cheap Aussie wine IMO is not drinkable, again I will say it, when I can get a good L-R for 3 pounds, why do I want a Aussie wine for 10 pounds which I cannot drink.
    I actually like very dry wines, like a young Barolo, you find me an Aussie wine like this, and I'm all ears.
     
  13. Zubberah

    Zubberah Senior member

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    This, along with your promotion of Yellowtail (one of my least favorite wines, anywhere) suggests that you and I do not have the same taste buds. Parker prefers New World and newfangled to Grand Crus anyway. I'm with whoopee and in some ways bouji. My favorites are relatively arcane St Emilions and Languedocs. After everything Italian that is [​IMG]

    Tom


    Tom, this is patent nonsense! Where have I "promoted" yellowtail? You can hardly even find it in Australia! I simply listed it in as an example of a very successful wine in the under US$7 category. no more, no less.

    You are also wrong on Parker. I have two of his books in front of me - Parker's Wine Buying guide and The world's greatest Wine Estates where he conclusively and categorically states that red burgundy is the be-all and end-all when it comes to pinot, especially Leroy and Dugat-Py.

    I agree our taste buds may differ however, and that can only be a wonderful thing. Wine is very subjective.
     
  14. Zubberah

    Zubberah Senior member

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    Ozzy wine is:
    1. Sweet
    2. Rich
    3. For lack of a better word, fake

    I don't call it elitisim, I call it personal taste. Give me a 3 pound L-R over a 40 pound Ozzy Shiraz any day.
    You say that Bougogne tastes nothing like it smells, and I totally agree with you. If I wanted the wine to actually taste like red berries and lavender, I would drink New World wine. But this is why New World wine is IMO fake. The aroma, or more properly the nose, is not supposed to have an effect on the taste. This is not wine, this is a flavored alcoholic beverage. Wine is supposed to taste like the grape(s) from which it is made. The nose is just another part of enjoying the wine, in France and Lebanon, and to a lesser extent Italy and Spain, the nose is an effect of terroir, Lebanese wine reeks of Cedar, L-Rs of Rosemary, New World wine seems to have no relation to terroir at all, and this IMO is not even wine. True, some French wine can be a very aquired taste, bone dry, lacking any lusture, but then is that not the case with any fine food? Especially French, take Foie Gras, Snails, Moules, etc.
    In a way, a good Aussie wine (like a 1990 Grange Penfolds, which I have drunk before) is like a Wagyu Beef hamburger, with Pie D'Anglous cheese, and Wiltshire Bacon, its all well and good, but when you put that much money and quality produce into it, who wants to eat a Hamburger?
    Cheap Aussie wine IMO is not drinkable, again I will say it, when I can get a good L-R for 3 pounds, why do I want a Aussie wine for 10 pounds which I cannot drink.
    I actually like very dry wines, like a young Barolo, you find me an Aussie wine like this, and I'm all ears.


    You're right Bouji, it's not elitism, it's not even "personal taste"; it's just plain wrong and ridiculous! Bouji, if you are going to make gross and vast generalisations and patently absurd statements like you have above (misconstrued as "fact") then go ahead but do not expect an intelligent reply. You yourself admitted earlier you have had little experience with Australian wine, and only at cheap end. Now apparently you have had 90 Grange too. Well, there are 2,300 wineries in Australia. How many of these wineries have you tasted? I would give your argument more "credence" if you actually had some semblance of experience with Australian wine, which you clearly lack. Australia does not make a singular style as you would have it. it is just as diverse as any wine region in the world. I'm not being aggressive or overtly critical, just flummoxed that you would make the statements you have with so little experience of the Australian wines. Don't even get me started on Terroir (Australia shows no terroir? What a joke! Tell that to Barossa shiraz makers, Margaret River cabernet, Hunter Valley semillon, Clare Valley shiraz, Coonawarra cabernet, etc I have been drinking wine for over 25 years from around the world and worked in the industry for 7 years and Australia shows telltale terroir as good as any other gloabl region). Oh, I am Lebanese so I am more than familiar with that wine such as Musar, Kefraya etc. in fact I have Musar back to the 1970s! But if you simply don't like the aussie wines you have tasted, then that is fine. Just as I despise and find undrinkable the cheap L-R which you like (obviously faulty but, aha, its the terroir say the french!). Just please don't not tarnish the whole country's wine reputation with the same brush given your very limited experience.
     
  15. tiger02

    tiger02 Senior member

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    Tom, this is patent nonsense! Where have I "promoted" yellowtail? You can hardly even find it in Australia! I simply listed it in as an example of a very successful wine in the under US$7 category. no more, no less.
    OK, guess I misunderstood when you said "Australia is streets ahead (qualitatively and quantitatively) of everyone when it comes to the under US$7 category (to wit: Jacobs Creek, Yellowtail, etc)". Successful yes, tasty no. I'll take ANY $5 chianti over Yellowtail.

    Definitely! Not liking oak works out in my favor. With a little bit of work, I can find great wines MUCH cheaper than Parker's faves. Chateau Brun and Sol du Lan'doc, for two.

    Tom
     
  16. Bouji

    Bouji Senior member

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    You're right Bouji, it's not elitism, it's not even "personal taste"; it's just plain wrong and ridiculous! Bouji, if you are going to make gross and vast generalisations and patently absurd statements like you have above (misconstrued as "fact") then go ahead but do not expect an intelligent reply. You yourself admitted earlier you have had little experience with Australian wine, and only at cheap end. Now apparently you have had 90 Grange too. Well, there are 2,300 wineries in Australia. How many of these wineries have you tasted? I would give your argument more "credence" if you actually had some semblance of experience with Australian wine, which you clearly lack. Australia does not make a singular style as you would have it. it is just as diverse as any wine region in the world. I'm not being aggressive or overtly critical, just flummoxed that you would make the statements you have with so little experience of the Australian wines. Don't even get me started on Terroir (Australia shows no terroir? What a joke! Tell that to Barossa shiraz makers, Margaret River cabernet, Hunter Valley semillon, Clare Valley shiraz, Coonawarra cabernet, etc I have been drinking wine for over 25 years from around the world and worked in the industry for 7 years and Australia shows telltale terroir as good as any other gloabl region). Oh, I am Lebanese so I am more than familiar with that wine such as Musar, Kefraya etc. in fact I have Musar back to the 1970s! But if you simply don't like the aussie wines you have tasted, then that is fine. Just as I despise and find undrinkable the cheap L-R which you like (obviously faulty but, aha, its the terroir say the french!). Just please don't not tarnish the whole country's wine reputation with the same brush given your very limited experience.

    Yes, my experience with Australian wine is low, but my above post is certainly my reflection on all that I've tried, including the 90 Grange.
     
  17. saint

    saint Senior member

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    I prefer Burgs overall, but am also a huge fan of Bordeaux. Both are well represented in my cellar and I am currently drinking '88-90 Burgs and '78-90 Bordeaux. I am surprised that no one mentioned Rhones, nothing goes better with a rare grilled steak than a nicely aged Hermitage or Cote Rotie (ok, maybe a Brunello di Montalcino or a Silver Oak cab).

    Bordeaux does produce some exceptional whites other than Sauternes, but they are wildly expensive, and you can almost always find a respectable white Burg on sale (eg I recently got a couple of cases of Laroche '00 1er Cru Vaillons for $20/btl) whereas good white Bordeaux are almost never on sale.
     
  18. jrandyv

    jrandyv Member

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    I have about 500 bottles in storage which I dip into from time to time. I've bought them depending on the vintage; for 2000 I bought 20 cases in futures. Now I buy only a case now and again. I think I've tasted enough burgundy and pinot noir as opposed to bordeaux and cabernet to know what I prefer. I do like the deep bodied wines; day to day I drink Beringer knights valley 2001 cab.

    jrandyv
     
  19. Bouji

    Bouji Senior member

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    I prefer Burgs overall, but am also a huge fan of Bordeaux. Both are well represented in my cellar and I am currently drinking '88-90 Burgs and '78-90 Bordeaux. I am surprised that no one mentioned Rhones, nothing goes better with a rare grilled steak than a nicely aged Hermitage or Cote Rotie (ok, maybe a Brunello di Montalcino or a Silver Oak cab).

    Bordeaux does produce some exceptional whites other than Sauternes, but they are wildly expensive, and you can almost always find a respectable white Burg on sale (eg I recently got a couple of cases of Laroche '00 1er Cru Vaillons for $20/btl) whereas good white Bordeaux are almost never on sale.


    I do not like Rhone.
     

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