Borrelli v. kiton

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by JErwin, Jun 1, 2004.

  1. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,582
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Honestly David, I think that if anyone is personalizing this discussion, it is you. Chill out dude [​IMG]
     
  2. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,582
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    I too am a big Barbera fan. The suits they produced in the first couple of seasons after switching to Attolini fit me better than anything else on the RTW market. Not quite as much handwork as Kiton, Sartoria Attolini etc, but at that level, it is not going to matter to most anyone.
     
  3. A Harris

    A Harris Senior member Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    4,582
    Likes Received:
    11
    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    The most important factor when deciding between RTW and bespoke? Where you live. In San Francisco for instance, there are no world class bespoke tailors with a local branch. And what about the millions of businessmen who live outside of New York/London/Paris/Milan/Naples etc. The only real option for them is RTW or MTM. I've seen the work of literally hundreds of 'local tailors' and in nearly every case the worksmanship was not up to the standards of top quality bespoke or RTW, not ANYWHERE near in most cases.

    How does the worksmanship of top quality bespoke compare to top quality RTW? Based purely on externally visible construction quality and finishing, many (though certainly not all) bespoke suits are inferior. That is to be expected, as the RTW companies have the handwork and finishing down to a science, and can consistently turn out garments finished to a very high standard. On the other hand, one big advantage of a top bespoke suit is that the canvas is tailored and shaped for the specific customer, and sewn by hand.
     
  4. dorian

    dorian Senior member

    Messages:
    518
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Location:
    NYC/London
    Yes, apparently Barbera's current lines are being made at - if not by - Attolini's factory. And they fit and are cut eerily similar as well. But, who knows... It's one of those things that I am told by sales people (who are not going for the sale but simply chatting) and are difficult to corroborate. Another one is that Ralph Lauren has purchased St. Andrew's to integrate his Purple Label production line. Like I said, who knows... And, now, for something completely different.... Good Doctor, I truly believe I know you well enough from posts in AA starting in late April (maybe earlier) to say this: you personalize comments all too often and are overly concerned with others' opinions. Now, I hope this will not fire up a discussion of forum use, conduct, et cetera. Remember that people write in all sorts of different ways, and their methods of communication (tones, inflections, facial expressions and on and on) are difficult to discern across uniform, typed forum correspondence. I won't continue now... but I have a question for you: do you drive a car that is as pleasurable to drive as is speaking of and being measured for bespoke suits? I ask because driving, I find, to be an incredible experience - and, as a doctor (although I have forgotten of what - please do excuse) you can probably deduce. Forums are great - but expression in life away from a computer is maybe better. Â [​IMG] Â "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." Oscar Wilde
     
  5. brescd01

    brescd01 Senior member

    Messages:
    543
    Likes Received:
    4
    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2004
    Dorien, I did not get the driving analogy. Also, so far as my being too concerned about others opinions, you cannot know unless you observed me day to day. I have accompllished a tremendous amount in terms of the renovation of my wardrobe, so despite my ATTENTIVENESS to people's opinions on this forum (I regard this as a conversation, not a soap box, and I have benefitted greatly from the contrary opinions expressed), at least I have not been frozen into inaction. Oops, did I show concern for another opinion?

    Andrew, I will try to chill. But I have seen at least one forum ruined by less than polite exchanges and ad hominem attacks, quite an influential one in fact, and I would hate to see that happen to AA or SF.

    Back to clothes: I agree with Andrew's point about location. I never thought coincidence that "Mark Grayson" located the perfect tailor across from his office. The whole long distance fitting thing (vis getting suits from visiting "great" tailors" works against inertia. I think it might work sometimes, but the odds are against it's working well.
     
  6. kalra2411

    kalra2411 Senior member

    Messages:
    718
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Location:
    West (central) London, UK
    I am sorry to be so blunt, but if anything it is people like you who damage the environment within the forum, with you lack of understanding of what people are trying to say. I can understand that it is impossible to convey true expression in writing, however if someone wanted to make a personal attack on you; they would more so go about it in such a fashion (note that the below does, in no way, reflect my personal opinion), Your ideas are entirely misconceived, you have no idea about anything, Made to Measure is not always better than Off the Rack. You are in America, you know nothing, America is the land of slobs, drink some beer why don't you. Do you want to watch more TV? You think you know how to dress well, but you just wear old man clothing, such as double-breasted suits, tassel shoes (of all insanities. ), and turn-ups. It is only because you are poor, and cannot afford Made to Measure, that you think it is superior. However, this is what I said, perhaps you ought to re-read it, and compare to the above:
    I also recommend that you do the same for the other posts by other members (which you thought were making personal insults toward yourself) (I.E. RE-READ THEM. )
     
  7. BGW

    BGW Senior member

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    Dr. Bresch:

    I don't even understand at this point what the initial alleged ad hominem was. What exactly prompted your switch into Style Forum Defense Mode?
     
  8. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

    Messages:
    20,008
    Likes Received:
    97
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Location:
    New York City / Buenos Aires
    kalra2411 Group: Members Location: Posts: 297 Joined: Aug. 2003 Posted: 15 June 2004, 1:52 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not think that just because something claims to be fitted perfectly for you that it will be. This is namely due to the fact that they do not have as much experience, and hence the purpose of buying a off the rack suit. I would agree that a made to measure suit will, 90 % of the time, fit better than an off the rack suit. However, it sometimes can be the case that a made to measure suit will fit even better, especially with a few alterations. In addition, note that fact that fit is not the final word in a quality suit, and almost always a high end off the rack suit will be of a better construction and the fabric will be of a higher quality than a made to measure suit of the same price.
    I also recommend that you do the same for the other posts by other members (which you thought were making personal insults toward yourself) (I.E. RE-READ THEM. )
    Interestingly enough it was the tailors of England (nee Savile Row) that initiated double-breasted jackets and turn-ups (luckily I do not like tassel shoes, but to each his own). As well, the double-breasted jacket is more "˜stylish' and less of a classic than the single-breasted jacket. I personally do not consider it "˜old-man', a DB jacket with 6-4 buttons and a high gorge and well-peaked lapels will look quite dashing on the right man (read: slender). Jon. (And yes, I understood your point)
     
  9. fopkid

    fopkid Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    45
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    May 31, 2004
    a harris, you make an interesting point about the relative advantages of top rtw vs. top bespoke -- that the construction of top rtw will be better b/c the factory has really nailed it down while the fit of top bespoke will be better. to that end, one would conclude that a fully bespoke suit from an oxxford or kiton, which would benefit from both attributes, would be the nec plus ultra.
     
  10. BGW

    BGW Senior member

    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2004
    fopkid brings up a good point. Does anyone know how bespoke is done at kiton? Once the pattern is made, does the suit get passed through the factory process, or is the suit made more or less by one tailor?

    How do the big Saville Row houses do things?

    I didn't even know Oxxford did full bespoke.
     
  11. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

    Messages:
    20,008
    Likes Received:
    97
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Location:
    New York City / Buenos Aires
    I believe that Louis Boston is the only store that offers Oxxford bespoke. I also recall that Kiton will manufacture the bespoke item and do all the fittings at their headquarters in Italy, but that the sartorial item must be shipped to a Kiton dealer of your choice for delivery.

    Jon.
     
  12. shoefan

    shoefan Senior member

    Messages:
    853
    Likes Received:
    193
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2003
    The Savile Row firms generally have specialists, be they in-house or out-workers, who specialize in jackets, or trousers, or buttonholes. Â However, certainly the degree/extent of specialization is much less than that of Oxxford, Brioni, et al. My understanding of the Kiton bespoke offering is very limited; this _may_ be synonomous with their "K 50" suit, which is personally fitted, cut, and sewn by one man -. Â I'm sure others will be able to provide more specific information. Â This suit may be le ne plus ultra, as it should be for around $10k. Â See: Kiton K50 suit for info on the Kiton and Oxxford bespoke offerings.
     
  13. JErwin

    JErwin Active Member

    Messages:
    39
    Likes Received:
    0
    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2004
    Thanks for the link, Shoefan. Attolini isn't exactly giving away their bespoke offerings, either. Wow.

    I think I should start giving more thanks for being able to fit comfortably-- and well-- into a 40 or 42 R.
     
  14. imageWIS

    imageWIS Senior member

    Messages:
    20,008
    Likes Received:
    97
    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Location:
    New York City / Buenos Aires
    $10k for a suit is insane. You can buy 3 RTW Kitons for a little more than that.

    Jon.
     
  15. STYLESTUDENT

    STYLESTUDENT Senior member

    Messages:
    1,141
    Likes Received:
    1
    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2004
    Location:
    SE Michigan (frequent NYC visitor)
    All the participants make good points. Mr. Harris says that a Barbera RTW suit, for example, will more likely be well tailored than the product of an unknown custom tailor. Dr. Bresch says that it is difficult to find a high-end suit on Ebay from a well-regarded manufacturer that will meet his needs with regard to both fit and fabric. These points are not necessarily contradictory - it's obviously easier to buy a quality "medium" cashmere sweater on EBay or Bluefly from, say, Malo or Purple Lable at a substantial discount than a suit-which has far more considerations with regard to fit and fabric. We've been spoiled by EBay for these items. The frustration then lies in the dollars, whether we opt for a custom suit from a well-known tailor at $3,000 or pay $2,500 and up at retail for Barbera or Oxxford. Hence the numerous posts seeking reassurance about less expensive and less well-known custom or made-to-measure suits. Whatever you choose, whether top-brand RTW or custom or made-to-measure, it's probably better just to accept the expenditure.
     

Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by