Borrelli v. kiton

[brescd01]

Okay, okay Jcusey, cool your jets. Bespoke shoes are the BEST.

I think that the RTW vs bespoke equation must factor in one's body. My body sucks. If you have the slim body much RTW clothing looks best on, you are in luck.

There is one thing however that RTW will NEVER have, and that is choice of fabric. The fabric that I selected was exactly what I wanted. It is my taste, as is the jacket's construction. That means a lot because it fits into the style I said each of us must cultivate. I would be very interested for someone who has had suits bespoke tailored by the best, to blow by blow compare them to an off the rack Borelli or Castagna.

So far as Ebay, I know all about that. But I need to know what size I am for each manufacturer, and this is knowledge I do not possess at present. Funny that people warned me away from bespoke until I learn more, when I think that doing bespoke has been much easier for me, in terms of time and knowledge required. People have warned that without taste we can ask a tailor to do something awful, but I am not clear what that is about, because I brought pictures of perfectly reasonable looking suits that were classic but current.

But that fabric choice thing, hard to beat that experience of getting exactly what one dreams of. To me, 2600 dollars for PRECISELY what I want is better than 1500 dollars for APPROXIMATELY what I want on Ebay, and that is what the Attolini's cost there and without no refunds permitted.

Albaladejos are a Spanish shoe that is a recent arrival in the US and just opened a boutique in Paris one year ago. The quality of the double monk I have is comparable to the CJ handgrade double monk I have too, and cost 380 dollars delivered from Paris. Reportedly, the web sites will be upgraded within a month to have the whole line available for viewing.

 

[JErwin]

Lance--
Good point about LB suits. I think I remember someone here saying that they are made in a facility owned by one of the Attolini clan. That said, they seem to have a distinctive silhouette, and a more attractive price.

 

[BGW]

Dr. Bresch

You are correct that bespoke is great for someone of your unconventinoal body type, and someone who is particular about the fabric of their suit (although MTM accrues this benefit).

I plan on taking the bespoke plunge myself, but that is because I like you treasure having a ton of "creative control" over the suit making process and enjoy the artisanal value of bespoke suit making.

That being said, it is not at all obvious that bespoke is better than RTW for everyone. I find your question a tad arrogant for someone who has never actually worn a bespoke suit.

You note that "To me, 2600 dollars for PRECISELY what I want is better than 1500 dollars for APPROXIMATELY what I want on Ebay."

Why would anyone eat tuna fish when they could eat lobster? If you are not price sensitive, then of course bespoke is the way to go. I strongly doubt that a 75% premium for a modest increase in fit and fabric choice would even find majority support amongst most Americans in our income bracket.

Second, you are presenting an unrealistic, idealized version of bespoke. I hate to break it to you, but it is unlikely that you will get "precisely what [you] want" from your tailor. Buying bespoke requires buying a good before you have a chance to see the finished product and inspect it. It also requires creating a coherent vision of a suit, translating your vision of a new into words, communicating that effectively to your tailor, and then them implementing that vision without error. Many many posters who have experienced bespoke, even from some of the top names in the world, came away dissatisfied with their garment because. To ignore these people's experience is foolhardy.

Third, RTW arguably meets many people's (those with less idiosyncratic preferences than us) needs more closely than bespoke for two reasons.

Quality -- Top name RTW is made by extremely talented tailors. RTW tailors can further improve their garment through specialization of labor. It is actually rather odd to think one tailor should make the entire suit. What bespoke maker prices within $2000 of Oxxford matches them in terms of construction quality and consistency?

Diversity -- Men can get an approximation of their wants through the market. There is a great diversity of RTW suit designs on the market right now. One can have most of their wants met through selecting a firm whose product matches their desires.

 

[offshore observer]

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[johnnynorman3]

Right now the Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece's are right in my target price range; but I've also got an appointment with W.W. Chan here in the U.S. coming up in about 2.5 weeks. The price will roughly be equivalent. If I had to choose one, should I go with the MTM Chan or the RTW Brooks? Seems like you all have a diversity of opinion here.

 

[brescd01]

First of all, I was comparing high end RTW to bespoke. If I wanted a suit that cost less than 1000 dollars, of course I would have to be satisfied with RTW. And for that price, RTW sounds like a better deal.

Second of all, I find hilarious (sort of) that whatever view I express, whether RTW is better (shoes) or bespoke is better (suits), someone thinks I am arrogant for having an opinion. Maybe I think YOU are arrogant for putting me down. BTW, I have very little respect for opinions that are couched ad hominem. There is also irony in that I questioned 10,000 dollar shoes, and was hammered for that, and now you hammer me for urging a 2500 dollar expenditure over a 1500 dollar expenditure. I enjoy these discussions, but not when they are personalized.

 

[kalra2411]

First of all, I was comparing high end RTW to bespoke. If I wanted a suit that cost less than 1000 dollars, of course I would have to be satisfied with RTW. And for that price, RTW sounds like a better deal.

Second of all, I find hilarious (sort of) that whatever view I express, whether RTW is better (shoes) or bespoke is better (suits), someone thinks I am arrogant for having an opinion. Maybe I think YOU are arrogant for putting me down. BTW, I have very little respect for opinions that are couched ad hominem. There is also irony in that I questioned 10,000 dollar shoes, and was hammered for that, and now you hammer me for urging a 2500 dollar expenditure over a 1500 dollar expenditure. I enjoy these discussions, but not when they are personalized.

Perhaps you ability at reading is poor. I really don't think anyone put you down, they were simply giving their own point of view.

 

[matadorpoeta]

Right now the Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece's are right in my target price range; but I've also got an appointment with W.W. Chan here in the U.S. coming up in about 2.5 weeks.  The price will roughly be equivalent.  If I had to choose one, should I go with the MTM Chan or the RTW Brooks?  Seems like you all have a diversity of opinion here.

it depends on whether or not you are picky about styling and whether or not the golden fleece matches those requirements. for example, you won't find slanted pockets, one-button jackets, ticket pockets, or single breasted peak lapels at bb.

brescod, no one was putting you down. they were only disagreeing with some of what you said.

 

[jcusey]

BTW, I have very little respect for opinions that are couched ad hominem.

With the exception of Kalra's statement about your reading comprehension, I don't recall anything in this thread or the shoe thread that could possibly be construed as an ad hominem attack on you. You have a right to your opinions. You have a right to state your opinions as forcefully as you want to. You don't have a right for your opinions to be immune from criticism. I disagreed with what you posted in these two threads, and I have posted those disagreements. If you object to what I've written, address it.

There is also irony in that I questioned 10,000 dollar shoes, and was hammered for that, and now you hammer me for urging a 2500 dollar expenditure over a 1500 dollar expenditure. I enjoy these discussions, but not when they are personalized.

The point that I've made (aside from the fact that your accounting for costs is not necessarily accurate) is that it's really impossible to take two kinds of data about two different choices ($2500 bespoke vs. $1500 RTW or whatever) and be able to say reasonably which choice is a better option. Many other factors matter, and the weight each of those factors is ascribed will vary from person to person. This isn't strictly about money, and it's not at all about you personally.

 

[jcusey]

Right now the Brooks Brothers Golden Fleece's are right in my target price range; but I've also got an appointment with W.W. Chan here in the U.S. coming up in about 2.5 weeks. The price will roughly be equivalent. If I had to choose one, should I go with the MTM Chan or the RTW Brooks? Seems like you all have a diversity of opinion here.

I would do a search for what others have posted about WW Chan here and on the Ask Andy board. If I recall correctly, one poster wrote that Chan's US visits are mostly geared to taking orders from existing clients, not measuring new ones. I have no personal experience, so take it for what it's worth.

If it were me, based on what I've read about WW Chan, I would go with the Chan suit if fittings could be accomplished satisfactorily. The Martin Greenfield-made Golden Fleece suits aren't bad, and the Isaia-made ones are even better, if you like the silhouette that Brooks is going for. Everything I've read, however, would indicate that Chan is likely to do a better job for the same amount of money (again, assuming that the measuring and fitting can be done satisfactorily).

 

[BGW]

JohnnyNorman: I corresponded with Chan over email and their rep said that it would be fine for me (a new customer) to be measured in DC. Clearly the main drawback to Chan is that measurement is being done in the US. Else, it would be a no brainer, right? I would go with Chan only if: a) After meeting and speaking with him/her, you feel confident about the qualifications of the person measuring you, OR b) you anticipate buying a large number of suits in that price range over the coming years. The risk of a Chan failure is made more palatable by the possibility for huge long term savings. This assumes you actually like the cut and make of the BBGF. I think you are savvy enough though to not buy a suit just on price/construction quality alone. ********* Dr. Bresch: It is unclear who you are even addressing with your last post. I will assume it was me because I characterized one of your statements as "a tad arrogant" (the horror&#33

. As many here have indicated, that comment was not a personal attack but a description of the tone of one of your posts. I urge you to re-read my post. I did not "hammer" or even "question" you for purchasing a bespoke suit (or two;-)), but rather expressed excitement that I might soon be joining you amongst the ranks of the "bespoken". What I did question was your totalizing statements in a prior post that high end RTW was inferior to bespoke. For many people, this is not the case, as many posters here have pointed out. I see both of the criticisms you listed (shoes, suits) as consistent. You questioned why anyone would buy a high end RTW suit, and why anyone would buy a high end bespoke shoe. The similarity between these positions is that they both ignore the diversity of tastes and income that various men possess. You, have cast what is right for you (rtw shoes, bespoke suits) as right for everyone, while the more seasoned veterans of this board recognize that every individual must make their own decision about what form of clothing is best for themselves. This is what I was attempting to convey when I used the term "arrogant."

 

[kabert]

Further to Jcusey and BGW, I think what they're saying is that -- and this has been expressed quite a few times on these boards -- bespoke does not always mean you're going to get exactly what you want. Your email suggested that it does. For many people (again, going by what a good number of people have said here and on AskAndy), it takes having several bespoke suits made, often by several different tailors, not to mention tens of thousands spent, before they get one that actually fits and looks the way they "want." In fact, I recall numerous people saying their first and sometimes second bespoke suits were disastrous experiences.... ("I asked the tailor to make me a suit and that's what he did.&quot

 

[johnnynorman3]

JohnnyNorman:

I corresponded with Chan over email and their rep said that it would be fine for me (a new customer) to be measured in DC.

Clearly the main drawback to Chan is that measurement is being done in the US.  Else, it would be a no brainer, right?

I don't like the Greenfield BB cuts all that much. But the Isaia/Cantarelli ones are actually really great -- much different than the Greenfields. I believe the one I have on hold for me was a Cantarelli made one, based on A. Harris's earlier post. It had a double vent, pick stitching on the lapels, a nice waist suppression, and a good button stance. Beautiful pants as well -- shallow pleats and a bit lower rise (which I like). I'm going to buy that one -- a black one that I'll make my wedding suit (I got an $860 gift card for $640 on Ebay; BB will also do the sleeve and pants tailoring for FREE. So, I feel I got a great suit at a great price).

I went back to BB today and it's too bad because they don't have the Italian golden fleeces in very many styles -- mainly just solid gray, black, and blue. Maybe I'll pick one up in dark grey, but I think I trust Chan enough to take the plunge.

 

[Alias]

The Internet sucks, Mr. Bresch, because whatever you say can be misunderstood by anyone else, and anything they say can be misunderstood by you.

There seems to be a consistent line of logic within this thread:

Bespoke can be better than RTW, but it requires more time, energy, and effort from you.

Top-tier RTW construction is hard to match even by bespoke tailoring, in that these makers hire actual tailors that probably run their own bespoke businesses on the side.

Now, I would have believed that this line of logic would apply, not only to bespoke suits, but also to bespoke shoes, but I dunno. It doesn't seem to. Of course, I wouldn't dream of spending more than $400 on a pair of clonkers that can easily see bad weather, angry animals, and jagged concrete.

 

[brescd01]

Okay, I will write VERY SIMPLY: personal (ad hominem) remarks of any sort, BAD. Non-personal criticism of any sort, GOOD. Personal remarks made about someone "eponymous," by someone anonymous, WORSE. DON'T DO IT. It is the poison of any forum. You think it affects only me (and therefore you can call me sensitive), but it will make others think twice about posting, and eventually your lovely forum will DIE.