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Best bespoke commission ever? I think so. *** PICTURES ADDED FOR THOSE LACKING IMAGINATION

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. Teger

    Teger Senior member

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    I think you're not really appreciating the arbitrariness of a many of the things you say, ie: wearing only Plaza lasted longwings is an 'ok' idiosyncrasy, yet having a curved yoke isn't. And how much of an idiosyncrasy is having a curved yoke anyway? We know the style is acceptable within the greater canon (see Western coats), so is it that much of a leap to adopt a feature of an accepted garment and apply it to to another piece? And what if someone found a picture of such a coat? Then would it be ok?

    I guess it comes down to this: I think you believe that is a much more cohesive and defined canon of classic menswear than there is. The reason I mentioned the hundreds of different configurations and styles of overcoats that can be considered 'classic' is because of this. Clearly the tailors who were first innovating and making the garments that developed into what you believe is the classic menswear canon were much less restrictive than you have become.

    Finally, you're right that a button down collar suggests a certain casualness, but I would also argue that having a curved yolk also suggests something -- both garments are conversant, and I would describe neither act as 'functional.'
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
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  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    And I think you are just being argumentative in treating the disparity between a Barrie-lasted and Plaza-lasted longwing as comparable to the disparity between Western, cowboy-style suiting and an English overcoat. The rest of your discussion hinges on that fallacious premise.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  3. Teger

    Teger Senior member

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    As Baron pointed out, when you're describing a curved yoke as 'objectively ugly' than it's difficult to have a conversation with you about any of this. As I said in my first post, your line of argument here just screams '19th century positivism!' to me, especially read with your explanation of modernism.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    You ignored my definition of ugly in the context.
     
  5. Teger

    Teger Senior member

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    Oh no I understand the context, but I still think such a blanket pronouncement (or even the use of the word objectively) is wrong. Again, to rephrase: everything you're saying in this thread is through the filter of your very particular belief in what the canon of classic menswear is. I don't think your understanding of what constitutes this canon, which is extremely rigid, is shared by most, and thus must be acknowledged as very arbitrary. It's fine that your particular understanding guides your own purchases - and is true of most people - but the problem is when you cannot see outside of this understanding.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
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  6. Ich_Dien

    Ich_Dien Senior member

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    +1. You asked me to say but this really nails it.
     
  7. CaymanS

    CaymanS Senior member

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    From the LH blog:

    I don’t want to bother anyone with what will be cool or not next winter season, I’m attending Pitti in florence this year and i will show up some new outfit that inspired me !!

    Pay attention to my camel coat, no buttons, no breast pocket only one belt as Mr Richard Gere use to wear it in American Gigolo’ !!

    I will post every night some new photos in order for all of you to enjoy it !

    Best,

    L.R.
     
  8. CaymanS

    CaymanS Senior member

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    What is the difference between a "representation" and a "warranty" in a merger agreement?

    I ask because there may have been a distinction 100 years ago. In 2013, there is no distinction that anyone can convincingly articulate.

    That may very well be the case here. We might just be a living in an era where the only thing we can agree on is that your coat is an overcoat. The key is that it is aesthetically beautiful.
     
  9. CaymanS

    CaymanS Senior member

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  10. dopey

    dopey Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Boom!
     
  11. zalb916

    zalb916 Senior member

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    What about your Modified Brooks Brothers OCBD? You "redesigned" a classic menswear piece. Double-button collar, French placket, two-button mitered cuffs, no chest pocket, and no back pleats. Is your, largely, cosmetic redesign of a classic item really that different from Taub's cosmetic redesign? I find your modification of a classic item more radical than his. And that's not a knock. I liked some of the modifications enough that I actually ripped-off some of your tweaks to make my own Modified Modified Brooks Brothers OCBD. I realize that my version is not classic, and I don't really care. I just like the way it looks. Here's part of the original post for those interested:
    http://www.styleforum.net/t/72046/m...ocbd-improvement-or-crime-against-nature/0_20
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
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  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I just assumed lawyers like using extra words.


    Perhaps. I'm glad you like my coat.

    I just wish it had a name. :(
     
  13. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Yes, I think my modified OCBD reflects a totally different species of change.

    Everything I did to that shirt comes from classic shirtdom. I didn't invent anything new. Also, the modifications were each motivated by functionality and/or pre-determined meanings within classic menswear. The collar must be double-buttoned to accommodate greater height (which, oddly, looks better on my neck). It also keeps the collar roll standing high. French plackets are dressier and I wanted to make a dressier shirt. Chest pockets have always been optional on OCBDs. Eliminating back pleats improved the fit on me.

    Mitered cuffs were also meant to make the shirt a little dressier, but I realize they may actually be no more dressy than standard barrel cuffs. Still, I didn't create a new cuff shape. I just drew from the existing gene pool.

    Now, I might be wrong about some of those things. But the point is, they are there for you to debate. The reasoning is grounded in the common language of classic menswear that you and I share.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  14. FlaneurNYC

    FlaneurNYC Senior member

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    The biggest difference I can think of is that most casual observers would not necessarily pick up on foo's changes, where many more people would probably easily spot that an asymmetrical back yoke on an otherwise classic overcoat is something unusual. The asymmetrical yoke is much more overt, even if it is less radical.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  15. hendrix

    hendrix Senior member

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    the assymetrical yoke is obviously weird , and I don't particularly like it either.

    But the rounded yoke lining up with the seams on the arms is not very radical at all. I think more people would notice a two button button-down than the yoke on the back of the Taub great coat.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  16. FlaneurNYC

    FlaneurNYC Senior member

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    I like the curved yoke and called it out in another thread. It is definitely more subtle.

    I guess because I don't particularly like the asymmetrical-for-the-sake-of-being-asymmetrical back yoke, it's the one I've been keeping foremost in my head when reading this thread.
     
  17. johanm

    johanm Senior member

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    I don't know of any deeper legal significance, but in ordinary English a "representation" is a description of something and a "warranty" is a promise or guarantee to do something prospectively. If you're selling something you may give a detailed or vague representation of that thing, and/or make an broad or narrow commitment to rectify problems that may arise after the sale. A bad representation is false or inaccurate, a bad warranty is unavailable or unfulfilled.
     
  18. CaymanS

    CaymanS Senior member

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    Matt, given the length of your neck, I think a one-button OCBD is actually preferable. Wasn't this one a one-button?

    [​IMG]

    Also, LH cuts a long sleeve ... how often does your entire shirt cuff poke out?

    Finally, it would have been great to get a full-fledged review of a Mercer & Son's semi-custom OCBD from vox before he hit the eject button. Judging by the beautifully soft roll of the collars below, there appeared to be promise...

    [​IMG]
     
  19. CaymanS

    CaymanS Senior member

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    The 'promise' portion of a merger agreement is the indemnity section, which stipulates that the seller will indemnify the buyer for losses arising out of a breach of a representation (subject to certain limitations).


    Only the shitty ones.

    Prevalence of Latin and Odle Englishe in a lawyer's written work seems to be inversely proportional to such lawyer's billing rate.

    The expensive/experienced ones are incredibly elegant and eliminate any useless verbiage, fearing that a jury or other unsophisticated interpreter of the document could eventually misconstrue it.

    It's the lackluster/inexperienced ones that love to sprinkle in whitnesseth, whereas, heretofore, "mutatis mutandis" and other words which do nothing but confuse, over-layer, and generally "cluster fuck" a document.

    Regardless of political bent, Justice Scalia is a magician when it comes to eliminating useless words. The vast majority of lawyers could gain a lot but studying his style.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  20. johanm

    johanm Senior member

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    I'd say there's a lot more overlap between indemnity/warranty than representation/warranty. If you really wanted to make a distinction, warranty is probably more "limited" in the sense that the future promise corresponds to the state of the item at sale (e.g. manufacturing defects) whereas an indemnity can serve as insurance or security against any type of future loss. This conversation is slightly off-topic.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013

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