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Best bespoke commission ever? I think so. *** PICTURES ADDED FOR THOSE LACKING IMAGINATION

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mafoofan, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. chobochobo

    chobochobo Senior member Moderator

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    Didn't really like it at first, but it's growing on me.
     
  2. A Canuker

    A Canuker Senior member

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  3. Slewfoot

    Slewfoot Senior member

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    I think the real joy comes when one can "let go" of many of the critiques after you know how to critique - if that makes sense. One can look as deeply into something and be as nitpicky as possible, but is that truly enjoyable? I think it takes some of the fun out of things. I think it's important one goes through that phase of constant scrutiny to truly appreciate what they do like. But I think it's good that one evolves from that for true enjoyment of their surroundings. That's just me though.
     
  4. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Well, the scrutiny and nitpicking becomes easy after a while and doesn't take any effort. Like riding a bike or driving stick.
     
  5. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    I'm not sure why we're judging his work on its "classic-ness" when it's clear he was never trying to be classic in the first place. It's not like he was trying to make a classic coat and accidentally mucked it up. He was purposefully trying to make an avant garde piece that fit some other aesthetic. This is like judging a piece of heavy metal music by whether or not it fit into the canon of Western classical.

    I'm not against nit picking things, but I don't know if rationality is the fabric of beautiful things. If everything that was beautiful had some rational science to it, we could imagine one day inventing machines programmed to endlessly create "perfect" art. IMO, we find things that are beautiful, on a gut level, and then we try to explain why it's beautiful to us, which takes a bit of rationalizing. But the first feeling is emotional.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
    6 people like this.
  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Machines and computers do play a huge role in contemporary art, though. That does not necessarily detract from the quality of the art.

    Your first reaction to a thing may be emotional, but I'm not sure why that matters. Rational inspection clearly impacts our ongoing assessment. What your gut told you was ugly at first glance, you may grow to see as immensely beautiful.

    You could argue the second coat posted is outside the classic idiom, but even so, it is then a weak attempt at best. Many of the changes appear frivolous as opposed to purposeful. Maybe I could be made to see it otherwise, but I would need someone to explain them to me. The first coat, on the other hand, is very clearly a classic piece in materially all respects but the back yoke.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  7. Slewfoot

    Slewfoot Senior member

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    That is true! It just takes effort for us to write about it on men's fashion forums! :^)
     
  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Exactly, don't confuse all this writing for effort. It's like explaining how to breathe for some of us. :)
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Senior member

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    Anyway, so do you have any other commissions with Rubinacci coming up? I assume none with artistic yoke details.
     
  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I'm meeting them in February on their upcoming NYC visit. But just to inspect this new overcoat and maybe go over a few older things.
     
  11. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

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    Those features are only bad too you, others may like them. There is always some subjectivity.

    A question if I may. Why did you show the coat to your tailor as an example of what you were looking for if you didn't like it. When I re-read your post I was left with the impression that you actually liked the coat but your tailors opinion changed your mind, hence your mention of his opinion.

    Its interesting that you 'attack', Taub's yoke treatment yet do not see the similarity between Taub's approach and that of your own tailor. In Taub's case he has added a fancy yoke, in Rubinacci's he has deviated from the traditional pocket style and added other features not normally associated with the style. Are you suggesting that it is OK for your tailor to deviate, innovate, update but not another? Actually, I think that out of the two coats, Taub's remains truest to the original, that is, the classic great coat.

    I understand why you feel the need to 'build a wall' around 'classic dress'. You do need boundaries or else the term 'classic dress' ceases to have any real meaning. The problem is, that at the periphery, there isn't a clear demarcation its more fuzzy than that.
     
  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    I didn't say I hated that first coat all around. I said I didn't like the back yoke detail. It was one of several examples I showed my tailor because the term "great coat" wasn't conveying anything.

    You really don't see the difference between adding a completely new design feature without any functional value and simply utilizing a certain kind of pocket? What struck me as bizarre about the pockets was not their format or existence, but the manner of their execution. But they are, in fact, "envelope" pockets, which I specified and which are part of the classic lexicon. Also, I was going to have hip pockets in any event, regardless of the precise style. I can't say the same about a yoke.

    As to your point about subjectivity--it is not subjective that such yokes are not orthodox. That is fact (though, I'd be happy to be proven wrong about that!). And, as you suggest, the whole genre of classic menswear would be meaningless without definition. Hence it is objective fact, not mere opinion, that entirely new aesthetic additions can be bad for the genre.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  13. Baron

    Baron Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    LOL. Hence, why do you people keep falling into this trap over an over? There is nothing you can say, nothing, that will advance this conversation. I think dieworkwear caught on a few posts ago.
     
    6 people like this.
  14. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

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    What advantage do envelope pockets have over a flapped pocket? Out of curiosity, why are they better for you?

    I'm not saying that envelope pockets are not part of the classic lexicon but they are a foreign word in the lexicon of the great coat. They are a deviation, and in the case of your pockets stylistically more so than functionally. I don't have a problem with this mind. Innovation often comes from hybridisation. I do take issue with your implication that new design features should have a functional component though. Too utilitarian.

    As to your point about subjectivity. It is subjective as to whether or not you find a yoke attractive, regardless of whether they are orthodox or not.

    An entirely new atheistic addition can indeed be bad for the genre, they can equally be very good for it too.

    Take a look at the work of this laboratory of style. A rather curvy yoke known as a Van Dyke. Taub isn't the only one seduced by curved yokes it seems. :

    [​IMG]


    What do you think?
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  15. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    :slayer::slayer::slayer:

    I like the idiosyncratic clothing geek foo, this is really nice.
     
  16. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    Asymmetry has been sucessfully used by avant-garde designers but it requires a full commitment (total look) and balancing it with other assymetric garments. I don't think you can do it with traditional menswear as symmetry is one of it's explicit goals. It's like wanting to do distorted silhouette or abandoning the idea of enhancing the secondary sexual characteristics (on men that's wide shoulders, slim waist, extended legs) like Rei Kawakubo at CdG often does for men or women. Commitment to a certain sartorial discourse (at least in an outfit) is not necessary when it comes to references but it is when it comes to the silhouette and texture.
     
    2 people like this.
  17. Lovelace

    Lovelace Senior member

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    ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2013
  18. unbelragazzo

    unbelragazzo Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Going back to dww's point...buttonholes, breast pockets, ticket pockets, FiH knots...those don't count?
     
  19. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    Then it cannot be worn sucessfully with a traditional menswear wardrobe so he is selling to the wrong clients and should approach L'Éclaireur or Dover street market to sell it along Carol Christian Poell, Comme des Garçons, Paul Harnden, Aithor Troup or whatever.
     
  20. Fuuma

    Fuuma Senior member

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    The goal isn't to make the garments look symmetric, it is to make your body look symmetric....
     

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