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Best Animated Film

Discussion in 'Entertainment, Culture, and Sports' started by jpeirpont, Jan 27, 2010.

  1. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    How much you want to bet he keeps trying though? [​IMG]

    Whatever you wagered, you just lost.
     
  2. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    Slim, you are one fucked up little cowpoke. It's Saturday night, my wife's out of town and I'm watching The Sea Hawk on TV. What's your excuse for hanging out at home arguing on the interwebs? Shouldn't you be out there trying to bang film majors?
    http://www.styleforum.net/showpost.p...&postcount=157 Same reason I was at home last night, and the same reason I've been at home since shortly after new years, and will continue to be at home until the first weekend of March. I like arguing, especially when I know I can't lose, and Film majors? Not my style at all. Anyone who hasn't realized that film school is largely a waste of money isn't really smart enough for me to be really attracted to them. The ones who DO realize that they are wasting their money and don't care... that's a different story but it's hard to tell them apart. Too much effort. I don't like being fooled or wasting my time. Oh, and while we've been chatting today I've finished up watching my Hulk marathon I started yesterday with Hulk Planet and The Death of the Incredible Hulk. I also watched Sherlock Holmes, and am now starting on a series of Rutger Hauer films not-including-Blade Runner which I watched Wed. First, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. then Soldier of Orange. Confessions of a Dangerous Mind... maybe Omega Doom after that. Just because you shared what you are watching.
     
  3. lynchpatrickj

    lynchpatrickj Senior member

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    I like arguing, especially when I know I can't lose, and Film majors? Not my style at all.... Too much effort. I don't like being fooled or wasting my time.


    Oh, and while we've been chatting today I've finished up watching my Hulk marathon...


    [​IMG]

    Do you work in film though? Are you trying to? You seem to be a pretty condescending fellow when it comes to children's entertainment: what's your stake in it? Lefty seems to be posting from an experienced expert's point of view, but in spite of your knowledge of the topic, you come off as twitchy and kind of neurotic. If you're just one of those men who watches a lot of cartoons (and brags about fucking lesbians to strangers on the internet...) though - well, QED I suppose.
     
  4. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    [​IMG] Do you work in film though?
    No
    probably at some point, not in animation though. Or at least, not as an animator. Incredibly boring work.
    I was answering Lefty's condescending attitude with one of my own. I didn't become condescending until well after he did. As a matter of fact, I gave him several chances to drop it at the beginning, but he made it pretty clear he wanted to have an argument about it with me. I enjoy arguing. It makes the time go by faster.
    I think you misunderstood the point of the lesbian story. It had just as little to do with what was being discussed as Lefty's "I've shaken hands with so and so, had dinner with X, Been interviewed by somebody, and made ___ number of movies." You can be easily misled into thinking that it has something to do with the topic, since the discussion is generally ABOUT animated films, but it does not. The topic is, who gets to decide what is a good movie. Lefty is convinced that it's him, or people in the industry, and I am convinced that it's the people who watch it and decide whether or not they like it. Not someone who knows a backstory, or has met the illustrator. The people who actually WATCH the movie. That is my point. The people that Lefty knows and the experiences that he's had in his life give him no more authority to arbiter the entertainment quality of a movie than a six year old who's watching it for the first time. Or a guy who sleeps with a lesbian. The point was, that Lefty's argument is full out sound and fury, but signifies nothing.
     
  5. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    I'd be the first to admit that I'm as full of shit as anyone. I'm not trying to condescend to you. If anything my writing is dry and as I don't use smilies it comes across as harsh.

    The Bakshi style comment caught my attention. Bakshi used rotoscoping to save money on the battles scenes and production. A fully animated feature can take years to complete and require a lot of talented animators, but you can shoot a costume epic in a few months and have nonprofessionals do the grunt work in a much shorter period of time. You still need key talent, just fewer than a traditional film. The Xerox machine was kept busy.

    Here's an interesting little documentary of Fire and Ice that shows the entire process including the studio shoot.

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    During production and release some heralded it as a new way of animating or a more realistic illustrative approach, but it was bloody awful. Even Bakshi later regretted using rotoscoping and as you can see in this interview felt that it was the only way he could produce LotR. He never mentions it as a stylistic choice. He also comes across as an angry old dude which makes me like him very much.

    ------------------

    Emru Townsend: One of the things you hear from people who work in animation is that you love rotoscope.

    Ralph Bakshi: I don't love rotoscope.

    It almost seems like you do.

    I don't love rotoscope. It may seem like I love rotoscope, but I don't love rotoscope. In fact I hate rotoscope.

    For someone who hates it, you used it an awful lot.

    That's right.

    How do you think I learned to hate it? [laughs] How do you get to hate something? You live with some women, they fuck you over, you learn to hate them too. It's only in contact with things that you get know it and hate it. You shouldn't hate anything you don't know. [laughs] Have I taught you something, son? [laughs]


    I'll have to take that to heart. [laughs]

    What the fuck is that all about? Absolutely. Who would know better than me? [laughs] You're funny.

    You got a lot of criticism for that"”

    They can take their criticism and shove it up their ass. Ask me the next question. What do I care about people's criticism?

    Well, I know you don't care about it. But the thing about it is"”

    The thing about it is what?

    I've always found the criticism kind of shallow. Because what I'm wondering is"”

    All CGI is rotoscope. What do you think CGI is today? All those special effects and everything you do"”I was using primitive CGI. Stop calling it rotoscope. All animators are now being thrown out of work because all of CGI and all of animation's going rotoscope. The only difference between what I did"”this is serious now"”and what they're doing is they've got this other step the computer does that's called rendering. So you take their rotoscoped fucking action, and you render it like I've never seen anything possibly"”hair is glistening, teeth are shining"”they cover up all the rotoscope with all this fantastic rendering, but it's all rotoscope! They call it CGI, I call it rotoscope with machine rendering.

    Sure I got criticism from animators for using rotoscope. But if anyone could tell me how I was going to animate the flight to the Ford [in Lord of the Rings], which is nine ring wraiths chasing Frodo on horseback, without rotoscope, let me know how and I'll do it tomorrow. There was no answer to that in my day. There wasn't CGI. How else should it have been done? There was no other way. Would I have liked there to be another way? Sure. Do I like rotoscope? No. Was it impossible to do Rings without rotoscope? You could not do Rings without rotoscope.

    What I'm saying is, sometimes [certain] techniques are needed. Now the fact that it was primitive compared to where it went"”I was in the primitive days of what CGI is doing. Look at the orcs. That came as close to rendering as you can get without a computer, with rotoscope, leaving the photographic image underneath the animation. It's the same attempt that they're doing in CGI. Now every special effect picture like Matrix and everything is all rotoscope, and people don't complain about it. Well, that's the end result of what Bakshi started, you can tell them that. [laughs] You can tell them they can kiss my ass.

    Actually, there are a couple of animators who call computer motion capture "Satan's rotoscope." They aren't particularly happy with the computer stuff either.

    No, rotoscope is shit! I couldn't stand rotoscope, but how else would you do the Rings? Those people that complain, you should [say to them], all right, motherfuckers. You're an animator, sit down and do the flight to the Ford, with nine wraiths chasing Frodo. Go ahead. I dare you. And finish it in less than ten years. Not to talk about the 200 orcs coming over the hill.

    So who are they kidding? But that's okay. Those are the same people that complained that I wasn't doing the kids' films, that I was ruining the business. If it's not one thing, it's another.

    Those wimps. [laughs] You can quote me.


    -----------------------

    Warning: academic animation nerd shit alert - Heavy Traffic (which I love) was in production right around the same time as Mean Streets and eerily both Bakshi and Scorcese used many of the same location to shoot.

    Heavy Traffic trailer:

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    lefty
     
  6. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Now I'm thinking about cool animated shorts. If the OP feels this is too off topic I'll move it. I really like drawn on film and stop motion work. There is something magical than happens with straight ahead animation. One of the first and still greatest is Norman McLaren of the national Film Board of Canada (and yes, I have met McLaren). McLaren was one of the first to experiment with abstract animation (Oskar Fischenger another) at a time when the focus was on cartooning. Here is a Norman McLaren and Oscar Peterson trip called Begone Dull Care:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. He also did a lot of stop-motion. Here he is giving the opening remarks at the Montreal Film Festival:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. Tim Burton's Vincent:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. While in a dark mood, Ted Parmelee's, The Telltale Heart:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. This is just bloody wonderful. Blu's Muto:
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  7. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    Re read that, and then tell me that required you to post the encyclopedia up there.
    • I didn't say Bakshi used it to be different
    • I didn't say Bakshi invented it
    • I didn't say he didn't have budgetary reasons for using it
    You are still arguing some bullshit point that Disney movies are inherently better than other animated movies. Disney has made some excellent animated films, but just because they are Disney doesn't automatically mean anything. Other than likely "the most money was spent." There are many, MANY other rotoscoped pieces of animation out there, both before and after Bakshi's heydey. Including Dieney films. Cinderella, for example, was fully filmed with actors and then rotoscoped frame by frame just like a Bakshi movie. Bakshi's lord of the rings, did not just trace over the lines of xeroxed live action frames either. Detail was added, dimensions were embellished, etc. Rotoscoping is as much a stylistic choice as it is a practical one. Much of the time it's been done, it's been done for the look.
     
  8. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    I'm not sure why i keep indulging your ego trips.

    It's pretty clear to me that you will not address WHY any of the things you mention make any of these movies "bad".
    You can't because there is no reason other than the fact that you are biased against these movies.

    3D didn't make Avatar bad, the shitty plot and acting did. Rotoscoping doesn't make American Pop (my fav Bakshi film) good, the story and voice acting does. Back to the original point, you said that the story and voice acting in Robin Hood are bad. I disagree. Many people disagree. I think the voice acting is pretty good, and it fits. The story, while a little loose, is a good adaptation of the Robin Hood stories I used to read when I was a kid.

    Judging a movie you saw 30 something years ago, based on some limited and arbitrary criteria of animation quality, and bending everything else to fit your subjective analysis is just kinda weird. I'm sure you are extremely bitter that hand drawn animation is a dying art form, but don't take it out on us.
     
  9. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Son, are you a special kind of stupid?

    If someone chooses to work in particular style they do so, more or less, for aesthetic reasons and as such there is nothing wrong with rotoscoping. A Scanner Darkly is a good example of a film that used the technique effectively for aesthetic reasons.

    Bakshi, however, did so for production reasons due to a low budget and the need to produce an epic:
    "Sure I got criticism from animators for using rotoscope. But if anyone could tell me how I was going to animate the flight to the Ford [in Lord of the Rings], which is nine ring wraiths chasing Frodo on horseback, without rotoscope, let me know how and I'll do it tomorrow. There was no answer to that in my day. There wasn't CGI. How else should it have been done? There was no other way. Would I have liked there to be another way? Sure. Do I like rotoscope? No. Was it impossible to do Rings without rotoscope? You could not do Rings without rotoscope."

    No where am I arguing about the superiority to Disney movies or classical animation to other techniques. If you look at my first list off the top of my head:

    Fantastic Planet
    Fritz the Cat
    Snow White
    Yellow Submarine
    Spirited Away
    Heavy Traffic
    Gulliver's Travels
    The Jungle Book
    The Iron Giant
    Pinocchio

    There are only three Disney movies. You'll also note that there are two Bakshi films. My last post was filled with experimental work as unDisney as possible. However, if I only look at Disney, then Robin Hood is way down on the list and has a certain reputation. Ignore me but don't ignore what the co-writer said. I'll repeat it for you just in case you missed it the first two times:

    "Ken Anderson wept when he saw how his character concepts had been processed into stereotypes for the animation on Robin Hood."

    You're really getting hung up on this rotoscoping thing and I don't think you understand what you're talking about with regards to roto work in Disney movies.

    Bakshi's LotR is a failure because of poor storytelling, crapola animation and insane direction, not the rotoscoping. Their failure was what they did with the rotoscoped footage.

    This clip is pretty telling:

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    Given enough time a good animator could have turned that footage into something magical.

    Now Bakshi will say that Jackson can kiss his ass as he copied much of his movies from Bakshi's version, which makes me like Bakshi a lot. I love the fact that he made it and have seen it a few times but that doesn't change the fact that it is awful.

    lefty
     
  10. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    Son, are you a special kind of stupid?

    Are you senile?

    This is the point I was making, not you. You are the one who claims that movies that are rotoscoped are not a style, that they are done simply because they are on a time or monetary budget and are second class films. Get your story straight. Half of what you post in this thread is nonsensical sidetracking bullshit. My point remains the same, and you keep dodging it. Why?

    So... WHAT?!??!?!??!?!?!??!?!?

    Pi was shot in black and white for budgetary reasons too, that doesn't mean that black and white is not a style of movie.

    [​IMG]
    You have done so throughout this thread.

    Guess what, this has nothing to do with how enjoyable the movie is. The original writer of the blade runner script wept when they made changes to his script too. For better or worse, it turned out to be a pretty good movie. You keep saying shit like this that is supposed to be meaningful or intelligent, but without remembering what the question is. You expect a response? The response I could have easily given for any of the shit you've posted so far is "So What?" It has no bearing on this conversation, and seems totally designed to prove how smart or knowledgeable you are instead of addressing the topic at hand.

    I don't care how much experience you have if you can't explain a simple statement you made back on page 3.




    YOU are getting hung up on the rotoscoping thing. YOU keep bringing it up. And you tell me what I'm missing with regards to roto work in Disney movies. Cinderella was shot completely in live action. Then they traced over every character action with animation. It was the first movie to do so.
    That is not what you said. You said it was crap because it was rotoscoped. Get your story straight.

    Like Cinderella?
     
  11. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Bakshi on Jackson. Kind of like this. Think I'll rent it for the nostalgia's sake.

    INT: I'm definitely a fan of your version of Lord of the Rings, as well as the Peter Jackson one.

    BAKSHI: [My version] had more character, more soul, more heart. Less sneaker selling.

    We thought it was pretty obvious at several points in the Peter Jackson version that they did take a couple of riffs from you.

    Uh huh. They took everything from me. The ring wraiths were taken from me. There was a lot! I mean, I designed the ring wraiths.

    Now, I know Peter Jackson said he also saw your films, and obviously it was some degree of an influence. I mean, how do you take that?

    Oh, some degree of an influence! Holy shit! Some degree of an influence! What are you talking about?

    Hey, I can be diplomatic either way, see? [laughs]

    Let me ask you a question. You're a bright lad in Montreal, right? Some degree of an influence. Look. I'm sitting here with a book called Lord of the Rings, and no film to look at. Every fucking thing you're looking at in Rings I"”the design, Gimli, Aragon, the dwarfs, the elves, all that stuff"”I came up with, basically because there was nothing to look at. Peter Jackson looked at it and said, I like that, I don't like that, I can improve on that. Who are you kidding? Look at his Lothlorien. Look at my backgrounds of Lothlorien. Take a look! He had much more to see than I did, and if you don't think he lifted it over and over again, you're wrong. I mean, how did he design a knife in Lord of the Rings? How did he design a sword? How did he design the dwarf with his axe? How did he design the fur around him? Why did Peter Jackson put fur around the dwarf? Because I put fur around the dwarf! Why would the dwarf have fur naturally? You see, I could give you a billion little things. I wish I had a movie to look at. That's fine for Peter [Jackson]. But for you to say "somewhat""”shit. Shit, that's ridiculous.

    Well, you know, I've gotta be diplomatic. I've got to be honest"”

    What? Why? Why do you gotta be diplomatic?


    Because I haven't seen your Lord of the Rings in a bout a decade. So my memory's not as good as it could be.

    Then go see it! Go see it. How about under the tree, under the limb, when the wraith on the road is trying to find Frodo, Sam, and the guys were hiding under the bush, under the tree, under the limb on the road, and it was on top? Where did that come from?

    See, you answered my next question, which was going to be, how did you feel about that? [laughs]

    How did you feel about that? You're the guy trying to be diplomatic, I'm not. How did you feel about that? I'm interested in how you felt.

    Well, like I said, I hadn't seen yours in a while, so I didn't have as good a memory as to how much it was. But there were some things that I saw"”

    Aren't you curious? Why didn't you take a look to see the shot-for-shot cuts and background for background?

    Oh, I'm plenty curious. Unfortunately, I don't get that much sleep as it is. [laughs]

    Well, let's take a look. You slap it in, you roll down there at high speed, and there it is. But you don't want to do that, because you'd be facing something you don't want to see, and you wouldn't know how to write about it, and then Peter Jackson will get mad about you, and you can't afford that and he's a hot director. You'd best forget about the whole thing and hide.

    Well, we all know I talk to Peter Jackson every week. [laughs]

    Did Peter Jackson ever actually contact you at any point?

    He can kiss my fucking ass. No he hasn't. He didn't have to contact me. He had my movie. Why would he contact me? He robbed me to begin with. What right did he have to make the Rings?

    It does happen on occasion. I don't know all the details behind it, so I had to ask to find out.

    Ask me another question.

    So we won't be seeing you and Peter Jackson in a bar laughing it up anytime soon.

    You won't see me and my first wife, either. There are certain people you don't want to go near, right?

    lefty
     
  12. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    Do you have a hard time staying on or getting back to the relevant topic?

    If you feel like posting lengthy and irrelevant dialogs between people, can you please just link to them in the future so we can ignore them without you shitting up the thread?
     
  13. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Are you senile?

    No, glutton for punishment. That has to be the only reason someone would argue with you.

    Anyway . . .
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    lefty
     
  14. thekunk07

    thekunk07 Senior member

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    i am writing an animated film based on this threak called "5 star thread"
     
  15. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    No, glutton for punishment. That has to be the only reason someone would argue with you.

    Finally, we agree on something.
     
  16. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Senior member

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    i am writing an animated film based on this threak called "5 star thread"
    Is there going to be nudity?
     
  17. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    Thinking about interesting techniques I remembered this old Fleishcer Popeye short. I'm not very good at explaining myself, so bear with me. Traditional animation was done by drawing the character onto a clear celluloid and laying that against a painted background. That way you wouldn't have to redraw every background. While you could have perspective drawn into a BG it was difficult to get depth. Disney would eventually invent the multlplane camera stand which allowed for varying depths of BGs and allowed you to rack focus through foreground and background paintings. The multiplane: [​IMG] First used here in The Old Mill. You can see the depth effect in the opening zoom.
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. Back to animation. If you wanted to give the impression that the character was walking across a room you would cycle him walking in one place: Walk cycle:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. Pan a BG underneath and you have a character walking through a scene:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. Anyway, Dave Fleischer was a very clever guy and wanted to create a greater sense of realism in his backgrounds. He and/or his cameraman took the Oxberry Stand (the large camera stand used to shoot animation) and flipped it on his side. Now instead of a camera pointing down onto a flat piece of artwork he had mounted so it shot horizontally. The platen (the glass rig used to hold each cel) was also mounted to the horizontal stand. For his background he built huge forced perspective models on a giant turntable. He could then have a character on a walk cycle and instead of panning a flat piece of artwork behind them he would rotate the turntable slightly with each frame. This gave the BG depth and perspective as elements in the foreground would move slightly faster than those in the extreme background. Fleischer called it the Stereoptical Camera or Setback. [​IMG] There could be some argument made that they stole the idea from the stop-motion guys like Willis O'Brien. I don't know. I believe it was only used a few times as it must have cost a bit to build a large set for every short and you could only use it for lateral action but it was pretty cool. Here's a clear example:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. You can also see the effect when Sinbad is walking camera right, but especially when the Roc is taking off to fly. Popeye the Sailor meets Sinbad the Sailor:
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    TIP: to embed Youtube clips, put only the encoded part of the Youtube URL, e.g. eBGIQ7ZuuiU between the tags. lefty
     
  18. javyn

    javyn Senior member

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    I enjoyed Fire and Ice, although I did think the rotoscope was a little much.

    On the other hand, if the rotoscope was a stylistic choice for Wizards, it was a great one. I think it worked very well with that flick. Keep it in the background and such.
     
  19. lefty

    lefty Senior member

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    That little documentary got me thinking about Fire and Ice again. Maybe time for another viewing. Always liked Frazetta.

    Of course all this talk got me thinking about my favourite animated Robin Hood.

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    lefty
     
  20. CunningSmeagol

    CunningSmeagol Senior member

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    Looks like TS isn't here anymore. Let me post this for him: [​IMG]
     

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