Bespoke shirt makers (needs to account for movement but also great fit)

[dauster]

So I now have 3 custom shirts two MTM and one bespoke. I can't say I hate them but also can't say I love them and while I understand that the 1st shirt always requires more work (back and forth) I am beginning to feel that especially in regards to freedom of movement there is no real benefit let's say compared to my heavily discounted banana shirts.

I worked with a local tailor here in SF (andreas gorges) not the most amazing fabric but actually fit wise quite nice. I have a MTM vanacore shirt from Gentlemens Footwear nice fabric and it looks great standing still but whenever I move around it slips out of the pants and there is not enough room for movement in shoulders etc. Last but not least I ordered one from richard anderson for the hefty price of $400 and while the thomas mason fabric is very nice this is shirt offers the worst fit of them all.

What to do I do? I feel MTM shirts are useless if you can find decent shirts off the rack but I was expecting more attention to detail when it comes to bespoke (Richard Anderson) - the shirt process almost feels like a side note compared to the suits/ jackets. I am thinking maybe find a maker like turnbull and asser that focuses only on shirts - btw would love to try the cheaper Italian makers but none of them come to San Francisco.

Or am I expecting way to much out of custom shirts? if that's the case I'll go back to banana and buy nicer fabrics on sale from zegna.

 

[bdavro23]

So I now have 3 custom shirts two MTM and one bespoke. I can't say I hate them but also can't say I love them and while I understand that the 1st shirt always requires more work (back and forth) I am beginning to feel that especially in regards to freedom of movement there is no real benefit let's say compared to my heavily discounted banana shirts.

I worked with a local tailor here in SF (andreas gorges) not the most amazing fabric but actually fit wise quite nice. I have a MTM vanacore shirt from Gentlemens Footwear nice fabric and it looks great standing still but whenever I move around it slips out of the pants and there is not enough room for movement in shoulders etc. Last but not least I ordered one from richard anderson for the hefty price of $400 and while the thomas mason fabric is very nice this is shirt offers the worst fit of them all.

What to do I do? I feel MTM shirts are useless if you can find decent shirts off the rack but I was expecting more attention to detail when it comes to bespoke (Richard Anderson) - the shirt process almost feels like a side note compared to the suits/ jackets. I am thinking maybe find a maker like turnbull and asser that focuses only on shirts - btw would love to try the cheaper Italian makers but none of them come to San Francisco.

Or am I expecting way to much out of custom shirts? if that's the case I'll go back to banana and buy nicer fabrics on sale from zegna.

I think it would be good to talk with the makers about your expectations and what the realistic outcomes could be. Knowing what is, and isnt possible goes a long way to success.

Then again, if you are finding what you want RTW, buy it. It will almost always be cheaper than other alternatives...

 

[dauster]

I think it would be good to talk with the makers about your expectations and what the realistic outcomes could be. Knowing what is, and isnt possible goes a long way to success.

Then again, if you are finding what you want RTW, buy it. It will almost always be cheaper than other alternatives...

Sure, well it is not like I haven't been discussing these things but since I only been trying to get custom shirts fro around a year my experiences are limited...

I would like to know if anyone here found the perfect shirt? I would be willing to pay for charvet if they offer a superior shirt but if it is just to pay for their rent on place vendome I have no interest.

 

[bdavro23]

Sure, well it is not like I haven't been discussing these things but since I only been trying to get custom shirts fro around a year my experiences are limited...

I would like to know if anyone here found the perfect shirt? I would be willing to pay for charvet if they offer a superior shirt but if it is just to pay for their rent on place vendome I have no interest.

Define perfect. What are the specific metrics that meet your needs/ wants? What are you trying to achieve?

 

[dauster]

I am trying to have a shirt that fits well but that obviously offers enough freedom of movement that while being comfortable also offers a perfect fit around waist, cuffs and sleeves - which are the obvious reason to get a custom shirt in the first place but seem to be harder to achieve than expected - actually everything in the custom world seems to be that way...

 

[bry2000]

First, go to a shirtmaker for shirts, not a bespoke tailor. I made the same mistake when I was starting out and was not happy with the result. Live and learn.

Second, the shirt from RA was most likely MTM, not bespoke. The typical “custom” shirt from an English shirtmaker is MTM, not bespoke. The terms are thrown around freely, but make no mistake.

If you are looking for a perfect fit, whatever that is, you will likely end up frustrated. Maybe Kabbaz can meet your needs for perfection. You can try him. Otherwise, you may need to adjust your expectations.

I have tried several shirtmakers over the years, including MTM and bespoke, but have yet to get a shirt that has fit perfectly. Most are good enough to move on with life.

 

[dieworkwear]

I get shirts made through Ascot Chang. I've visited them in their Beijing and Los Angeles stores. I've found that I prefer Nelson Chin as their fitter. He's the tailor that comes during trunk shows. They visit San Francisco twice a year. Prices are decent. Shirts are machine-made. I like them for their consistency and the fact that I know I can continue buying shirts from then for the rest of my life. With multiple stores around the world, it'll be easy to get fitted no matter where I live.

If you're looking for that handmade, la dolce vita charm of handmade shirts, this isn't it. But they good work and have been able to copy collars I've wanted (I've sent them sample shirts and, once, just a photo). Fit is great so long as you see Nelson Chin.

Budd and Dege & Skinner also visit the city. I have no experience with them. A couple of friends of mine, however, use them and like their work.

 

[comrade]

I wouldn't trust Herr gorges to hem my jeans. He ruined a pair of slacks I purchased
RTW in London maybe 20 years ago because he had not learned how to shorten a rise.
As for shirts, I've learned that if you by the best RTW that you like, alterations which for me
usually meant taking in the waist, are a no brainer. The problem is that in the Bay Area the choices
are becoming more and more limited as stores close and departments shrink. Also, I rarely
like what the buyer(s) choose at Wilkes, Saks and Niemans who carry the same high mark-up
shirts. H & Ks are very decent if you like the two collar choices, and generously cut - even their
trimmer cut, so there is room for alterations. As for their real bespoke, you'll have to go to
London (or Paris?).

 

[ValidusLA]

Turnbull and Asser makes a pretty great shirt but I believe they have a first time minimum order of 4 shirts so once you factor in taxes you're likely at 1.8-2k. Bit steep before you have proof of fit.

 

[dauster]

Turnbull and Asser makes a pretty great shirt but I believe they have a first time minimum order of 4 shirts so once you factor in taxes you're likely at 1.8-2k. Bit steep before you have proof of fit.

Yes I agree 4 shirts is a lot but I asked about it and they obviously only start with one to nail down fit and then continue to make the other 3. T&A also offers MTM though and then the minimum order is only one... but I just feel other than picking fabrics MTM doesnt offer me much...
It appears that Marol does not come to SF anymore - what I a shame.

 

[dauster]

I wouldn't trust Herr gorges to hem my jeans. He ruined a pair of slacks I purchased
RTW in London maybe 20 years ago because he had not learned how to shorten a rise.
As for shirts, I've learned that if you by the best RTW that you like, alterations which for me
usually meant taking in the waist, are a no brainer. The problem is that in the Bay Area the choices
are becoming more and more limited as stores close and departments shrink. Also, I rarely
like what the buyer(s) choose at Wilkes, Saks and Niemans who carry the same high mark-up
shirts. H & Ks are very decent if you like the two collar choices, and generously cut - even their
trimmer cut, so there is room for alterations. As for their real bespoke, you'll have to go to
London (or Paris?).

So far Herr Gorges has been pretty consistent but hey I would not be surprised that mistakes do happen. And yes choices here are beginning to look slimmer and slimmer.

 

[dauster]

I get shirts made through Ascot Chang. I've visited them in their Beijing and Los Angeles stores. I've found that I prefer Nelson Chin as their fitter. He's the tailor that comes during trunk shows. They visit San Francisco twice a year. Prices are decent. Shirts are machine-made. I like them for their consistency and the fact that I know I can continue buying shirts from then for the rest of my life. With multiple stores around the world, it'll be easy to get fitted no matter where I live.

If you're looking for that handmade, la dolce vita charm of handmade shirts, this isn't it. But they good work and have been able to copy collars I've wanted (I've sent them sample shirts and, once, just a photo). Fit is great so long as you see Nelson Chin.

Budd and Dege & Skinner also visit the city. I have no experience with them. A couple of friends of mine, however, use them and like their work.

Thank you, I just sent an email to Budd and Dege & Skinner re shirts let's see what their pricing is...

 

[dieworkwear]

Yes I agree 4 shirts is a lot but I asked about it and they obviously only start with one to nail down fit and then continue to make the other 3. T&A also offers MTM though and then the minimum order is only one... but I just feel other than picking fabrics MTM doesnt offer me much...
It appears that Marol does not come to SF anymore - what I a shame.

Three to four shirts is pretty common for the first order. Ascot Chang is the same. I believe Budd is too. Bespoke shirtmakers need to hit a minimum to justify drafting your first pattern. Some shops require as many as six shirts on the first order.

As you noted, British bespoke shirtmakers will usually do one shirt first to test the fit. In some other shops, mostly those in Continental Europe, they'll do fittings. I think the endpoint is the same. It's mostly about how you feel regarding a finished garment that will be washed and worn. British shirtmakers, as well as Ascot Chang, often feel there's no point in a staged fitting if the garment is going to be washed and worn. So they'll do one shirt as a test run. Other shirtmakers create a shirt like how a tailor might make a suit.

 

[ValidusLA]

Yes I agree 4 shirts is a lot but I asked about it and they obviously only start with one to nail down fit and then continue to make the other 3. T&A also offers MTM though and then the minimum order is only one... but I just feel other than picking fabrics MTM doesnt offer me much...
It appears that Marol does not come to SF anymore - what I a shame.

I believe the MTM price is pretty negligibly lower than the bespoke price.

I'm sure @dieworkwear is right about the fit one then make three - they explained the process to me in December at the NYC townhouse but I've forgotten.

 

[Shirtmaven]

Dauster
you are making the mistake made by so many guys who have spent too much time on the forums.

there are lots of aspects to take into consideration.
do you care where the shirt is made
how important is fabric quality.
do you travel at all for work on a regular basis.

Your "perfect shirt" may take several tries. Perfection
why? because it sounds like you want certain fit issues worked on.
of course if you make one correction to the block pattern it might effect another aspect. of fit.
you are better off working with someone then punching in numbers into your computer.
there are people who work with factories in both the USA and Asia, some are good and some are passable, and some are just awful.

some will have interesting fabrics, while others will be working from the same classic swatch books of the mills that everyone uses.
are you looking for classic dress shirts for suit and tie, or business casual?

what do you expect to spend for a well made shirt using good "Italian or Swiss" fabric. and being measured by an actual expert.
I have my opinions on most of the companies mentioned previously.


There is no one left in San Fransisco actually making shirts. on site. If i am wrong anyone is happy to correct me.
I know at least 5 shirtmakers in the Los Angeles area. Prices vary. from moderate to very expensive.
I have worked with customers who do not live in NYC. they do need to make one trip and have a sample made while visiting,.

sorry if this replay is all over the place.