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bespoke math

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by PiPPo NYC, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. Verniza

    Verniza Senior member

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    I wouldn't blow 3k on a tailor who outsources his work. Where is his tailoring pride?
     
  2. Sanguis Mortuum

    Sanguis Mortuum Senior member

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    Many/most good tailors outsource some part of the making up (even though most outsource to local tailors rather than overseas). Not many tailoring houses have their own workshop where every step is performed by tailors on their permanent payroll.
     
  3. Shirtmaven

    Shirtmaven Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    3.75 yards is plenty for a basic suit. you will need 1/4 yard more for a plaid (GBR as usual you are wrong!)

    offer to pay the tailor in cash. should also avoid sales tax..

    since i do not know who the tailor is, i doubt that a pattern is actually being drafted in the usa and then sent to HK/china. Unless the tailor has a cad program.

    I also doubt that you will receive a basted fitting. too expensive shipping garments back and forth.

    you might have a fitting with unfinished sleeves and no buttonholes.

    I have seen fantastic work coming out of China but $3000 does seem a bit high even with the Dormeuil fabric and bemberg lining.

    i have seen garments from Ercole and chan. both do an excellent job for less.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2012
  4. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    I think all you guys are missing the broader point here - its not about the definition of bespoke, or what portion of the work is outsourced. If this 'tailor' was cutting the pattern on site, outsourcing the basting / tailoring overseas, and truly skilled to properly conduct fittings, it wouldn't be that bad (although, better options remain in NYC for $3K).

    However, by the OPs description, this guy doesn't sound like a tailor, but rather a salesman of some sort - the pattern is probably developed by a local CAD system and then sent overseas for manufacture. If that is the case (and I suspect it is), $3K is ridiculous.
     
  5. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Do you think you will like and appreciate the suit more by spending 2500. than 3000? It's the same suit and you won't like it any more at 2500. if it doesn't fit or doesn't have the look you want. Don't know the exact way this will be made but it sounds like you will receive a very generic styled and constructed suit. In your investigation, seek out others in the price range and learn their methods and look at finished product to discern if they make something in the style and silhouette you want to have. If your original person has a superior pattern, cutting system and understands how to fit you, 3000. may be a good value. Key thing having clothes made in this method is to work with a great fitter with an eye to know your fit issues. The third party doing the work only has the information provided to them to work with. You have a handful of local options in NY and if you add traveling tailors, even more. Hopefully you are looking for a long term relationship with someone to make your clothes. Work with someone you can communicate with and trust.

    80 hours is sometimes needed for bench work. You won't get that in China. You are getting something mass produced. Maybe 15 hours, tops. Just maybe. A Brioni suit is made in 19 hours.




    PB you should have something like Senior Ambassador Member Status here. You know how to reach out and make a person feel at home on the interwebz!
     
  6. TheTukker

    TheTukker Senior member

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    I think I, and some others here too, may know which tailor is being discussed here. That said, invaluable advice from Despos here:

     
  7. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Thank you. Not to contradict you but I would value this at 2 cents.
     
  8. Brendon

    Brendon Senior member

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    I agree with Sanguis M .Outsourcing has been done for a very long time. The senior chap I work with used to work in a room of 20 tailors in a Savile Row basement in London and to a man, they all had a different way of making a suit. However the cutter was just upstairs or just down the road for amendments to be made to the garment. Some were tidy some were not with their work. Some were good at pressing off ( very important) The important thing was the cutter could eyeball the suit with the tailor. The Tailor could blame the cutter and the cutter blame the tailor and seen as the cutter was in charge and the tailor on piecework payment the cutter would win. The point is being in close proximity is beneficial to the process. Tailors worked hard and often drank. The worst thing was if a tailor took advance payment on your suit from the boss before finished, it then became a "dead job" and the finishing was sure to be rushed. Did this matter, probably not because the cut ...the tailoring philosophy is the most important thing. It is how your suit is perceived at 5 yards plus is where a bespoke suit that is cut straight will pay off. In Savile Row your 65 hours will not necessarily get a beautifully finished coat inside but you are sure to get a fairly straight cut with a west end tailor. Bemberg lining, lots of lining is called this and some is not that good. Cupro Bemberg is the go and wholesales for your Bespoke Math equation at around 8 Euro a metre, or cupro silk if you are dead flash at 12 Euro metre.
    It is irrelevant how long the suit takes to make. 19 hours of Brioni will give a finish that all tailors will aspire to, they are beautifully made suits that will never fit the individual. If a tailor takes 80 hours and the cut is just ho hum then the tailor might as well take 100 hrs. The cut the cut the cut.

    When you find the right cut for you, to repeat what I stated earlier " If you want a lifelong relationship with the tailor, pay the mans price"
    As a Bespoke Cutter Tailor only about half of my customers ask the price, the other half are the ones I will hopefully keep for life

    Why not try that Popradi bloke, he at least looks like the real deal and one suit I saw on you tube looked like a straight cut. I think he is in canada but travels to NY.
    good luck
    Brendon
     
  9. TheTukker

    TheTukker Senior member

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    Actually, you are, so allow me to re-emphasize the bit that I think has significant value. Hopefully, this is what most people invest in when they go the bespoke route:

     
  10. Simon at Elite

    Simon at Elite Senior member

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    That's not true. In fact in Asia you are more than likely to have more time spent making your suit than if it was made in NYC.

    I have blogged about the rise of outsourcing bespoke tailoring to Asia

    http://bit.ly/IZT10m

    It's far more common than you may think
     
  11. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    It also depends on all of the seam lapping, and lined, or partially lined and such. All of those things cost more.
     
  12. Eustace Tilley

    Eustace Tilley Senior member

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    Jesus dude - my point is that his suits start a little over $2K. I'm not asking you to list out every imaginable configuration to showcase your knowledge of bespoke or Frank's offering.
     
  13. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    If you diamonds for buttons that also costs more. OR lining made of ermine.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
  14. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  15. patrickBOOTH

    patrickBOOTH Senior member Dubiously Honored

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  16. Despos

    Despos Senior member Dubiously Honored

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    Do you write your own material or outsource to your staff?
     
  17. Rudolf

    Rudolf Active Member

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    $3,000 for Bespoke suit is a very reasonable price, unfortunately what you would be receiving is not what you think is a Bespoke suit. Over the years the meaning of Bespoke has changed and is becoming very misleading to clients Bespoke today means, that a pattern would be created for your individual measurements.(not some adjusted pattern). What you are expecting since you mention 80 hours to complete is what I call "True Bespoke", this includes all that beautiful fine hand stitching which you hear so much about and at least 2 fittings. If your suit is not True Bespoke than $3,000 is a little high. Always, always ask for a sample of the tailors work before you put down a deposit and check the inside and outside of the jacket. If the stitching is too perfect then you are not paying for a True Bespoke suit.

    For the question of the cloth 3 3/8 yards of plain fabric is sufficient.
    The worth lies in the workmanship not in the cloth.

    Rudolf Popradi, Bespoke
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2012
  18. GBR

    GBR Senior member

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    I think that you will find that YOU are wrong. 4m is the normal figure quoted for a suit and indeed you admit as 3.75 plus .25 does actually equal 4. I do not doubt some tailors can get away with slightly less with plain pattern for smaller people but that figure is frequently quoted and indeed what I have supplied to a tailor who derived no benefit from there being more cloth.

    Indeed this is information gleaned here in the long gone heyday of the Forum.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2012
  19. E TF

    E TF Senior member

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    4 yards = 3.66m
     
  20. Nicola

    Nicola Senior member

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    You're spending 2,3,4K or more and you're worried about .25 metres of fabric??????

    Spend your time trying to make sure the tailor doesn't waste too much thread. That would be an even bigger saving.
     

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