Bespoke costs at Savile Row

[MontyChapman]

I was browsing the selection at a vintage suit store whilst looking for my first "proper" suit and came across some sadly way-too-big Anderson Sheppards. Real shame it didn't fit me but I must say they looked stunning. The silhouette, the cut - everything! YUM! I had a chat with the fogey assistant but he said that recent Savile Row "isn't like the olden days" and isn't worth it because the fabric is a lot thinner/flimsy (he said "all very Italian style") and the workmanship/quality control is poorer.

I was wondering what forum members think about those sentiments shared to me by the assistant? Is a Savile Row garment worth it? Of course, any bespoke garment will fit you like a glove (until one starts gaining weight, which is happening to me right now) and at the end of the day, it is tailored to your body shape and preferences but the question is, is it really worth all that cost? I think figures are around 3000/4000 pounds for a two-piece - or am I out of sync?

P.S. How much would it cost to get a two-piece suit/wool overcoat tailored bespoke at Anderson & Sheppard or Henry Poole these days?

 

[thatboyo]

Probably starting over 5000 pounds now. Permanent Style has ~4800 for suit price for both and the articles were written a few years ago.

Permanent Style

Anderson & Sheppard two-button jacket: Style Breakdown

www.permanentstyle.com

Permanent Style

Henry Poole double-breasted suit: Style Breakdown

www.permanentstyle.com

I want to say fabrics are probably better now. Workmanship/quality seem to vary for bespoke in general just from reading experiences from forum members.

 

[dieworkwear]

I agree with that assessment, although I think you can still find good fabrics if you know where to look.

I was not around and ordering bespoke clothes during the 1970s or 80s. My impression is that SR was better then and you could go into many of the more reputable shops and be assured that you're getting a good suit. I have seen work from that time period and it looks great.

That no longer seems to be the case. I feel like every shop has a different story, but it's often the case that you can't just waltz into one of the big names and be assured that you're getting the best. I've heard a lot of speculations on why: there's not enough skilled labor to produce the quantities needed, skyrocketing rents are squeezing out bespoke tailoring businesses and forcing them to concentrate more on RTW, and just general grumblings about mismanagement.

I've used one big SR name and was disappointed with the results. I also used one of the big West End names for shoes and was similarly disappointed. The best work that I've experienced has come from small, independent houses run by the cutter or lastmaker. My impression is that they care more about their work. Smaller quantities means better quality control at a time when there's a skill shortage. I've heard similar experiences from friends who use a wide range of bespoke tailors and shoemakers.

Prices vary, but for the big names, I think you can generally expect to pay about 5000 GBP for a two-piece suit.

 

[MontyChapman]

Are there any other non-Savile Row cutters/tailors that will do almost as good, or even better work? I'm thinking of places like Davies & Son, Dege (does that count? I always considered to be a military-style tailor), Denman & Goddard and etc. How are their reputations?

 

[lowlander]

Savile Row is for cosplayers, stay clear.

Get an Italian suit.

 

[dieworkwear]

Are there any other non-Savile Row cutters/tailors that will do almost as good, or even better work? I'm thinking of places like Davies & Son, Dege (does that count? I always considered to be a military-style tailor), Denman & Goddard and etc. How are their reputations?

I don't have any experience with those shops, so I can't comment on their work. I use Steed and like the clothes they made for me. They rent out a small space on Savile Row, but mostly work out of a workshop based in Carlisle. If I could try a new British tailor right now, I think I would get something from Fred Nieddu.

Sometimes I wonder if our view of history is even accurate. I've seen some Anderson & Sheppard suits that were made in the 1970s through 90s, and as they were worn by the people they were made for, they looked great. However, I also think that a lot of what we understand about British bespoke craft is colored by bad reporting.

Some things come to mind.

1. The first is @ntempleman's comment in this thread, which I think is illuminating. He works as a bespoke shoemaker and I think has a clear-eyed view of things. Will let his comments speak for themselves.

2. The second is a recent conversation I had with Daniel Wegan, formerly the lastmaker at Gaziano & Girling. When I asked him about the "Golden Age" of shoemaking, he thinks of that time period as being late 1800s/ early 1900s, not the 1930s through 60s (what menswear enthusiasts would consider to be the Golden Age of classic style). To paraphrase, Daniel said: "when people talk about the inter-war years and post-war years as being the best, I wonder what they're talking about. When I look at shoes from that era, they seem fine but not remarkable. Many of the 'reviews' of clothing from that period are not terribly technical, they're just glossing over the celebs who bought these clothes."

3. I also think about @RJman's new book, Swan Song, and how it compares to previous books by writers such as Peter Mayle. Mayle is a good writer and I enjoy his books, along with the many other writers who wrote in the past about classic men's style. But as Wegan noted, all they really say is how Cary Grant used this tailor or how Gianni Agnell used that tailor. They are not really saying anything about the technicalities of the tailoring, or even remarking on what the average person received.

When you read sites such as @jefferyd's blog, you get a much different view of tailoring. It's much more technical and "serious" (for lack of a better term). It's substantive. RJman's new book isn't as technical, but it's also not just a vanity book (which characterizes 99% of what's out there on this subject). It reads like a much more honest account of the subject.

I can only say that I went to Andrson & Sheppard and GJ Cleverley about five years ago, commissioned some things, and was left disappointed. If a customer in the 1950s or '60s was unhappy with their garment, what recourse did they have? Would they even be able to assess the garment in a meaningful way? Now you have guys who are much more informed, and they can exchange info online.

The best work I've received, as a customer, has been through small, independent shops run by the lastmaker or cutter. That said, there are tons -- TONS -- of bad independent shops out there. But among the "best in class" work I've seen, I've been surprised by how much is done by small companies.

 

[Frog in Suit]

But there are quite a few Savile Row houses which are still owned and run by their cutters: Meyer and Mortimer I know is one. I am pretty sure Davies, Denman & Goddard, Kent & Haste also are. Dege, Poole (and a few others, perhaps) may not be owned by their cutters but they are family-owned and run along traditional lines.

Anderson & Sheppard and Huntsman have big money behind them so are not cutter-owned.

I do not understand Monty Chapman mentioning Dege and Davies as being “not Savile Row” They very much are, as are all the firms that I just mentioned above, except, perhaps, D & G, because the Savile Row Bespoke Association mandates a certain physical distance between Savile Row and members’ shops. Nothing to do with process or quality.

Incidentally, in response to another comment, “military” tailoring is more precise than, certainly, “soft” tailoring. It is in no way inferior to “civilian” tailoring.

If you want quality (and who does not?), I would recommend sticking to only one tailor, obviously after doing your research and meeting them in person. There may have been a time when one went to X for dress clothes, to Y for riding breeches, to Z for country suits, and so forth, but not in my lifetime, and probably not since WWII. Once you establish that you will be a repeat customer, you should receive the best quality the firm is capable of. I should add that I am doubtful about the “big names” providing better quality than some of the “lesser” ones, within reason. It is my understanding that one, at least, of the more famous (especially in America) houses tend to entirely skip the baste fitting (perhaps the so-called “soft” style they favour is more forgiving). I have never had fewer than three fittings, more often four and even, once, five, if I remember correctly. That was the tailor’s decision as he was not satisfied with the garment. I could not tell what, if anything, was wrong. Going to a good tailor and establishing a long-time connexion means you get the benefit of his conscientiousness.

Finally, heavier cloths mean longer lasting garments that hang better. I don’t know if it is an internet-induced trend or if tailors nowadays expect their customers to want light cloths, but it is the customer’s decision to bespeak the cloth he wants.

The last suit (Three piece) I ordered was in July 2018, took delivery in February 2019, for GBP 5,040. I presume that is standard pricing for SR, or was at that time.

 

[Nytailor]

Back in "the day", when I was a youngster working on Savile Row about the lightest weight fabric we worked on was 11/12oz. Most were in the range of 16 to 18oz. In other words, very heavy and thick. Truthfully, these weight fabrics hide most mistakes cutters and tailors make and, as such, were/are, great to work with!! I would argue, however, that the quality of work coming from Savile Row tailors now is better than of days gone by. We now work on much lighter weight fabrics, perhaps even 6 1/2 to 7 oz. To make a suit from this weight fabric takes far more skill. Does it stand up to the rigors of suits as lamented by the salesman in the first post, absolutely not. But then not many people want the bullet-proof suits of yesteryear. My clients here in NYC certainly do not. About the only time I venture into the heavier weight fabrics is when I am working on a period movie. Although it's very hard to even find these heavy fabrics now.