Berg and Berg

[Wrenkin]

I don't think I said anything about elegance? I only said that I think Berg's prices are fair for what they deliver. I don't have any opinion on why they don't refund VAT. For my purchases, I find the amount to be so small, I don't see the reason to care.

There seem to be two ways to view this: you can either judge the fairness of the price in terms of what you're receiving, or you can judge the price relative to other prices and/ or the process.

...

In these conditions, I'm not terribly surprised that a small company isn't very sympathetic. I assume there are like three or four people working at Berg. They are probably short-staffed. So then I imagine they get an email from someone who bought something at 30-40% off. That person might have a history of making returns. They buy small items. They only shop on sale. Now this person wants another 20% off for VAT.

I mean, at some point, it just seems ridiculous. I hear these complaints over and over again from brands and retailers who feel there's a certain kind of online shopper who's just a PITA to deal with. I also think many of these people often act surprised when their favorite company goes under ("that was my favorite place to shop on sale!").

If you're some kind of big-time spender at Berg (which would not be me) and you regularly pay full price (also would not be me), then maybe you can kindly ask them to deduct VAT. I've bought a few small things here and there, some of them on sale and some at full price. It has nothing to do with elegance and more to do with how I wouldn't want to treat people in a certain way.

...

I recently spoke to someone about the term "Karen" (which seems to be a sexist word as there's no male equivalent for Karen, but that's another story). Anyway, someone didn't know what the term "Karen" meant. I explained to the person. This person then replied and said "well, sometimes I want to speak to the manager because I think the person is trying to get over on me." That, to me, seems to be the point. Some people have a real hang-up about whether they're extracting as much as possibile from a deal, or whether someone got over on them. Buy pants or don't buy pants, but this kind of petty consumer behavior seems like a male version of being a Karen.

Again, I agree with you in general. To me though the VAT issue feels qualitatively different. Other stores using different software have the whole issue automated. B&B can't figure it out, so they're effectively price discriminating based on location. When I say elegance, what I'm referring to is your focus on a particular kind of annoying deal hunter, and their mindset, as just not being as chill as you are in their approach to value for money.

So what this really is about is that people don’t want to pay as much as us Europeans? You don’t know how nice you have it. For us Europeans it is expensive as hell to buy clothes from the US. I once paid more in import duties than the actual price on the clothes I bought. But I guess if you want to squeeze every last penny from a company to get a good deal, go buy SuSus bi-annual outlet instead.

At the moment, when a store doesn't deduct VAT I'm actually paying more. VAT is a tax paid by EU residents. It's built into the displayed price, unlike in North America where tax is added on after the fact. In Europe, if an item is 800 euros, and VAT is 25%, then the customer sees a price of 1000 euros, but the company is only getting to keep 800. When I import something to Canada, DHL or whoever charges me local tax. So while a European's all-in cost would be 1000 euro, mine is 1130. And the company is getting to keep 1000. Maybe some of that extra 200 euro is being used to subsidize their European operations. Maybe it's being used to pay DHL for all the American SF jerks who buy 10 things and return 9 of them. Who knows.

Now, it's true that VAT is usually higher than my local Harmonized Sales Tax of 13%, so if VAT were deducted I would effectively be paying less than an average European customer. Regarding importing from the US, I can't speak to that since Canada has a free trade agreement with the EU. But up until a year or two ago, anything bought from a company like B&B would have been subject to about 18% duty, and then 13% tax on top of that. So the 1000 euro item would have cost me 1333. Going the other way, right now, if you bought a Canadian item and imported it into the EU my understanding is that you would only pay local VAT on arrival.

I think Americans tend to see the VAT discount as an extra coupon code. It's like a freebie. So when the coupon code doesn't work, it's natural to feel a bit of frustration or dissatisfaction.

Some may also know that VAT is a tax that the company is ultimately supposed to pay to the government. Since Americans are exempt from the tax, it feels like someone is keeping "your money."

I don't know. I both see the logic, but also feel for small brands who are not able to process this stuff, as well as brands who feel like they're just constantly getting squeezed. I think sometimes people move through these transactions as though they're dealing with some faceless conglomerate. And they want to get something for as little money as possible. It just ends up being a death spiral for mid-tier brands. When in Europe, I sometimes find that some stores refund VAT and some don't (there's also the VAT counter at the airport, but that's a huge pain **********). I've been told why some stores don't refund VAT, but I have no idea what's the truth of the matter. I find it most sensible to just judge the final price and decide whether you want to pay given the goods/ services at hand.

It 100% feels like they're keeping my money, because they are charging me more, and justifying it by not having picked a software package that automates the process on the back end like many, many other companies have successfully done. Including many not very large companies, across industries. And it feels that way whether or not the extra amount is included in the displayed price, or tacked on as a "20% annoying overseas customer service charge". To me the issue of price discrimination is qualitatively different then nerds arguing about whether the hand-stitched details on a trouser waistband are really worth $40 more than what Spier & Mackay charges, or whether Church's are overpriced because Grenson also produces goodyear-welted shoes at a lower cost (For the record, I 100% do not care about "Pre-" or "Post-Prada", and the associated discourse). I am perfectly happy to judge the value of an individual item on its own merits, but of course I will hold it against the company if they are charging me, specifically, more money, and can't give a good reason why.

 

[othertravel]

On a related note, Anderson & Sheppard’s haberdashery had the best VAT refund system I’ve ever encountered (for in-person sales).

They process it in store, and it’s debited back to your CC in 6 weeks. Beats the VAT kiosks at airports that take a large commission.

 

[professorclee]

I agree that Berg&Berg's prices are reasonable given the quality, fit and make, particularly for high-rise trousers, so I will buy from them, ignoring the VAT issue as part of the cost. Shipping is fast, via Fed-Ex, and I have never been subject to import duties on the items. The complaints really boil down to optics and representation because other small Scandinavian/European menswear companies with even smaller internet followings than B&B (Linnegatan2 comes to mind but also Beige Habilleur) remove VAT automatically when you select the country of shipping. Secondly, the B&B website includes the written claim that the VAT is taken out when it isn't:

Because the trousers work for me and the cost is already half of Rota, I will shrug and complete the purchase, but the incongruities should be ironed out for the benefit of the company's profile even if it means simply removing the "Rest of the World Price excl VAT."

 

[TokenMao]

@dieworkwear the damn thing about Karens is that, aside from the trending ones who are committing actual acts of violence, they are often technically not wrong. It's more a matter of, "just because you can doesn't mean you should" and their self-centeredness makes them abrasive, since human interactions are by definition not about yourself but about your interface with the world. So quibbling over a VAT remains a valid issue since it is technically on the side of right to do so, and it doesn't matter that there is probably a logical reason for this or that your time is better spent solving actual problems in your life and not issues you manufactured for yourself because you couldn't just get your pants at Costco like a real man.

But this is all relatively tame and civil bro. Have you seen the comments sections for higher end mainstream retailers like Saks or Nordstrom? It's ******* insufferable how cruel and arrogant a 23-year-old woman (not trying to be overtly sexist, just that their clientele is basically the opposite of our suited sausagefest) can be when she feels like someone owes her something.

Secondly, the B&B website includes the written claim that the VAT is taken out when it isn't:

View attachment 1422162
Because the trousers work for me and the cost is already half of Rota, I will shrug and complete the purchase, but the incongruities should be ironed out for the benefit of the company's profile even if it means simply removing the "Rest of the World Price excl VAT."

You can call it Karen-ing or whatever but I think the key point that people are pointing out is the fact that B&B claims to remove VAT for RoW customers when in fact they don't. Could be an honest mistake on their part or it could be purposeful intent I don't know, but if they're purposefully lying to a subset of their customers then I think it's totally valid for those customers to be upset. If you think that the principle behind not wanting to deal with companies that intentionally lie to you (again I don't know if this is actually the case, could be an honest mistake) is quibbling over a trivial issue then I respectfully disagree with you.

That being said @professorclee is right, just take out that language... I've bought from EU stores that deduct VAT and I've bought from EU stores that don't (and don't claim to), as long as the messaging is honest then it just comes down to whether you personally think the product is worth the price regardless of VAT.

 

[stuffedsuperdud]

You can call it Karen-ing or whatever but I think the key point that people are pointing out is the fact that B&B claims to remove VAT for RoW customers when in fact they don't. Could be an honest mistake on their part or it could be purposeful intent I don't know, but if they're purposefully lying to a subset of their customers then I think it's totally valid for those customers to be upset. If you think that the principle behind not wanting to deal with companies that intentionally lie to you (again I don't know if this is actually the case, could be an honest mistake) is quibbling over a trivial issue then I respectfully disagree with you.

That being said @professorclee is right, just take out that language... I've bought from EU stores that deduct VAT and I've bought from EU stores that don't (and don't claim to), as long as the messaging is honest then it just comes down to whether you personally think the product is worth the price regardless of VAT.

I think we interpret differently what they wrote (it is admittedly confusing): I took it to mean "This is the price for the EU and includes the VAT. For the rest of the world, this is the price you pay and it does not include the VAT, i.e. you will not see a deduction at checkout" so to me it was basically them saying "you pay the same as the Europeans only we keep pocket VAT part." The first time I shopped there I did do a currency conversion to understand what they meant, but after that I just went, "eh...fair enough." It's ultimately the same amount out of everyone's pockets and I would rather Karin and Matthias and their employees (big ups to that guy they call Yoda btw because it takes some serious balls to walk around with that haircut and name) have my money than for it to go to the Swedish government (or any government), but I digress.

 

[Wrenkin]

The first time I shopped there I did do a currency conversion to understand what they meant, but after that I just went, "eh...fair enough." It's ultimately the same amount out of everyone's pockets and I would rather Karin and Matthias and their employees (big ups to that guy they call Yoda btw because it takes some serious balls to walk around with that haircut and name) have my money than for it to go to the Swedish government (or any government), but I digress.

Again, it isn't "the same amount out of everyone's pockets". VAT isn't supposed to be charged to non-residents of the EU. But those Non-EU customers' purchases may be subject to their local "VAT" on import. As I understand it, Americans aren't charged sales tax on import, only duties (if applicable), and there is a very high threshold ($800) before customs even bothers to levy them. Other countries don't work like this (e.g. Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc). They apply both duties and "VAT" (or whatever it's called locally) to the cost of imported goods. (Fun fact: the threshold in Canada for border guards to apply duties and taxes can be as low as C$20 if you use the postal service.) So a Canadian customer of a European company that doesn't deduct VAT is paying local Canadian "VAT" on an inflated total. Effectively, they're paying a tax on a tax, and they are therefore out of pocket significantly more than a European customer.

 

[Zerase]

Effectively, they're paying a tax on a tax, and they are therefore out of pocket significantly more than a European customer.

I cannot find the picture now, but Sweden implemented a new tax on plastic bags. A shop hade a sign saying "Plastic bags 0.38 SEK, Our price 0 SEK, Tax 0.30 SEK, VAT 0.08 SEK. That is as Swedish as it gets

 

[Sellidor]

Regarding comparison shopping, Berg & Berg's pricing policy exacerbates the issue. The reason we sit around waiting for their products to go on sale is because of their frequent and massive sales on everything. As a result, customers view the original prices as grossly inflated, which erodes trust in the company.

There are brands who have fixed and fair prices year-round, without huge discounts. I don't see why Berg & Berg couldn't do the same.

 

[Contango]

There seem to be two ways to view this: you can either judge the fairness of the price in terms of what you're receiving, or you can judge the price relative to other prices and/ or the process.

Or judge the prices compared to the amount EU customers pay B&B for the exact same item.

In these conditions, I'm not terribly surprised that a small company isn't very sympathetic. I assume there are like three or four people working at Berg. They are probably short-staffed. So then I imagine they get an email from someone who bought something at 30-40% off. That person might have a history of making returns. They buy small items. They only shop on sale. Now this person wants another 20% off for VAT.

A whole lot of straw man arguments there, especially around returns (which are probably less likely for someone outside the EU given the extra shipping costs they would bear), or the size of the items. They are applying this to all buyers outside the EU, regardless of the size of purchase.

If they are willing to sell an item to EU customers for a certain price then what difference should it make to them that their customer lives outside the EU? It costs them no more to do so.

 

[9thsymph]

Wait...Because I'm in the US and entitled to not pay VAT, B&B charges me a slightly different amount than its EU customers?

Uh...yeah, I'm fine with that, actually. Isn't it possible that whatever that difference is, might get swallowed up by any number of logistical costs re shipping to non-EU (that's not built in to the shipping fees that are charged to non-EU customers)?

Either way...see the price and decide if you are willing to pay...that's my metric...

 

[9thsymph]

(the polos are killer!)

 

[Wrenkin]

Wait...Because I'm in the US and entitled to not pay VAT, B&B charges me a slightly different amount than its EU customers?

Uh...yeah, I'm fine with that, actually. Isn't it possible that whatever that difference is, might get swallowed up by any number of logistical costs re shipping to non-EU (that's not built in to the shipping fees that are charged to non-EU customers)?

Either way...see the price and decide if you are willing to pay...that's my metric...

If you want to pay it, go ahead. FYI Swedish VAT is 25%.

 

[9thsymph]

If you want to pay it, go ahead. FYI Swedish VAT is 25%.

*buys second polo...*

Ok

(I was charged 10 euro for 2nd-day shipping from Sweden to Chicago...um...I think I'm good with the math on this one?...I do get your point, though. I think the costs might be distributed elsewhere, however?)

 

[Viral]

*buys second polo...*

Ok

(I was charged 10 euro for 2nd-day shipping from Sweden to Chicago...um...I think I'm good with the math on this one?...I do get your point, though. I think the costs might be distributed elsewhere, however?)

Shipping is not VAT

 

[9thsymph]

Shipping is not VAT

I know. My point is that they are robbing Peter to pay Paul. They are redistributing costs/savings...