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Berg and Berg

Viral

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That’s fine. In my opinion, it’s not worth an extra $410 over what I’m paying. Also, a suit being made in a small factory in Italy does not necessarily mean it’s the greatest quality. You may have information that differs from their website, but they don’t list the mill that the fabric comes from. There’s nothing that tells me it’s worth the price tag without taking the risk in purchasing. I’m not willing to do that at $1000. The point that we are trying to make is that they are willing to make 20% less from European customers (they don’t benefit from the VAT tax). Furthermore, they have blamed it on software for close to two years from what I understand. That shows me that they enjoy making the extra 20%.
:fistbump:
 

TokenMao

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Luckily, I know my measurements fairly well. I don’t have to just punch in numbers and hope for the best. What is to say that the base fit of an OTR garment is going to be better? That’s essentially what MTM is without alterations. The difference is that I get to have a say.

I think it's the fact that the customer gets control without guardrails that makes it so risky. If measuring for a suit was so easy / simple that every guy with a measuring tape and a mirror could do it perfectly then fitters would be out of a job and I feel like we'd have a lot more good cheap MTM out there. Also it's not the base fit, it's RTW + alterations at a good tailor (who can see the garment on you in person) that's better than online MTM most of the time because even if you know your measurements you're relying on them to translate that well into a finished garment and get the fit right without ever seeing it on you in person which is really tough. That being said if you've done it before and you're happy with the results that's what matters.

All of the above being separate from the VAT thing which I agree with you on.
 

ericgereghty

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For my money, the only real issue is the VAT pricing. More specifically, the (seemingly) disingenuous nature B&B has gone about presenting its rationale on the topic.
As a consumer, there’s almost nothing more off putting than being made to feel like a rube. That’s what B&B’s approach has led me to feel.
 

stuffedsuperdud

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I agree, and in the last few pages alone, there have been critiques on Berg suits fit. The MTM suit should fit better given the measurements are correct and executed in production. I’m sure that B&B produces a great suit, but I’m not willing to take a $1300ish (after customs) gamble to find out. I would be if the **** was on sale and didn’t include VAT.

All MTM guarantees is that there are more moving parts in play, and no takebacks. I think everyone assumes bespoke > MTM > RTW... until their first custom disaster that they cannot return. Where are you able to get sub-$1000 MTM, btw? I figure something comparable to BB's stuff might be a maker like...maybe Samuelsohn? And that's in $1500+ territory.

It's not a gamble in that you can return it. I don't think customs kicks in until after a certain value? Just buy the jacket and pants separately and I think you'll be fine.

For my money, the only real issue is the VAT pricing. More specifically, the (seemingly) disingenuous nature B&B has gone about presenting its rationale on the topic.
As a consumer, there’s almost nothing more off putting than being made to feel like a rube. That’s what B&B’s approach has led me to feel.

Ehhhh I agree with this in theory. I don't mind spending $ but I do hate wasting it, and it's usually clear cut with wild ripoff fashion stuff like Tom Ford or Brunello Cucinelli or whatever,but professionally, I am part of a small client-facing team (Berg Berg sized) within a small company, and that might make me more sympathetic than most to what must go through B&B's minds when looking at their P&L sheets every month. I know what they're doing is disingenuous but I think that a lot of their stuff is still a fair price for what it is, even with the fake-VAT, because I like the less-is-more elegant minimalism vibe they try to put in the products they design themselves and you can't really get that anywhere else; even if I went to a bespoke place, the tailor and I might not have the designer eye that Andreas brings to the table.

And hey, this is StyleForum. If we're going to talk about "being made to feel like a rube," most of us have paid a lot more for a lot less just because some #menswear guy was wearing it. Karin and Mathias Berg are totally innocuous compared to actual fashion industry hustlers.
 

ericgereghty

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The notion of fair pricing has nothing to do with it, for me. It's inescapable that B&B's presentation leaves me feeling lied to and totally neglected as a customer. It's hard to argue they present a "fair price" (they very well may, objectively speaking) when that mindset is baked into the equation. Essentially, we're left with "deal with it" as a reasonable assessment of B&B's feelings on the matter. For my money, there's no way around that leaving a sour taste, UNLESS the pot is significantly sweetened.
In so many words, I don't think it's unreasonable for consumers to expect a company to provide honesty when possible to do so.
 

dieworkwear

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The notion of fair pricing has nothing to do with it, for me.

Seems bizarre to me to separate out the price from the product you're receiving, and thinking about whether what you're receiving is fair for the price.

I get that people are upset that VAT isn't discounted. When I purchased, I remember wondering where's the VAT discount. But I also realized that the prices are extremely fair for the quality of make and the styling of the items.

This sort of comparative bargain shopping is why the middle of the market is disappearing. People wonder why value-focused brands are struggling to survive. It's because people comparison shop to death. This is especially difficult on classic menswear brands because their items are treated like commodities, unlike Dries or Kapital, where the designs are more unique.

Anyway, obviously people can and should do what they want.
 
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dieworkwear

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Paying $200 for something without a VAT discount



EItaDuXUwAElQtC.jpeg



Seeing the same item retail for $251 and paying $201 with a VAT discount


EItaGfUU4AAmEQI.jpeg
 

othertravel

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Paying $200 for something without a VAT discount



View attachment 1421872


Seeing the same item retail for $251 and paying $201 with a VAT discount


View attachment 1421871

Come on, Derek. Of course it’s fair that a customer would be unhappy that VAT isn’t deducted. It doesn’t mean the customer is greedy.

And what’s wrong with comparison shopping? Retailers do it all the time with their suppliers.
 

dieworkwear

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Come on, Derek. Of course it’s fair that a customer would be unhappy that VAT isn’t deducted. It doesn’t mean the customer is greedy.

And what’s wrong with comparison shopping? Retailers do it all the time with their suppliers.

Nothing wrong with comparison shopping. I just wish people who comparison shopped wouldn't also constantly act surprise that the middle of the market is disappearing, their boutiques are closing, factories are shuttering, etc. "Why doesn't such-and-such heritage brand not cater to my specific interests anymore?" "Why did they cut quality?" "Why is the market bifurcating?" "I can't believe XYZ closed," etc.

Anyway, as I noted, I also looked for the VAT discount. But ultimately, they charge fair prices. Personally, I'm more concerned about buying from an overseas shop, as it makes it harder to do a return

And what’s wrong with comparison shopping? Retailers do it all the time with their suppliers.

I can tell you that many retailers and brands don't do this, they try to form long term relationships with companies and suppliers that provide them long-term value. I know many companies right now, in fact, that are sticking by their suppliers even during the shutdowns -- which is making it hard to do business in the short term. Many are being pressured to move production to cheaper factories elsewhere. But they value relationships and long-time value, so they stay by those companies they feel provide them with those things.
 
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Zerase

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Anyway, as I noted, I also looked for the VAT discount. But ultimately, they charge fair prices. Personally, I'm more concerned about buying from an overseas shop, as it makes it harder to do a return
Maybe this is their reasoning as well? That they really cannot be bothered by overseas costumers as they still are a pretty small team running things?
 

dieworkwear

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Maybe this is their reasoning as well? That they really cannot be bothered by overseas costumers as they still are a pretty small team running things?

That might be it, I don't know. Berg & Berg strikes me as a really small brand.

I think it's very hard to run a business in this segment of the market because consumers demand a lot. They want free shipping, a 30- to 60-day return window (sometimes also the ability to return discounted goods), VAT discounts, promotional discounts, StyleForum coupon codes, etc.

Berg charges 10 Euros for shipping to the US. If your order meets a certain amount (basically two ties), shipping is free. StyleForum guys often wait until the sale season to shop. From their website, it looks like Berg also offers returns on sale items.

At a certain point, I think it's reasonable to say you're getting good value for your money, and not try to suffocate a brand to death.

I can imagine sitting on the other side of this equation: a guy on Styleforum wants to buy a made-in-Italy suit. It has been discounted to $923. Shipping to the US is free. He wants another 20% off, which means he wants to pay $738. I don't know how much Berg pays for their suits, but the linen I've seen wholesales for $40/m. That's $160 in fabric, plus cut, make, and trim. Add to that shipping. I can easily see feeling this is pointless and maybe even destroys your brand (how many people who want VAT discounts also accuse brands like Brooks Brothers of relying too much on discounting?).
 
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Konnor

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I get that it’s important to pay for quality. My opinion still stands. Currently, that suit is really $4-500 more than it would be without VAT. If bought together, it exceeds the $800 limit before customs kick in. I’m not sure the exact rate, but I assume it would be around 20-30%. Even at 40% off and no VAT reduction it would be. Everyone has different situations in life. Some don’t bat an eye at $4-500 above what something should actually be if done right. I am not in that situation.

You also don’t understand the other point in this argument. Berg and Berg is making 20% less on each sale to those living in the EU. If they can do it for them, I’m sure they can afford to do it for the US. What has been stated is probably true. They’re willing to lose 10%-19% of sales to make 20% more on each purchase.
 

dieworkwear

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I get that it’s important to pay for quality. My opinion still stands. Currently, that suit is really $4-500 more than it would be without VAT. If bought together, it exceeds the $800 limit before customs kick in. I’m not sure the exact rate, but I assume it would be around 20-30%. Even at 40% off and no VAT reduction it would be. Everyone has different situations in life. Some don’t bat an eye at $4-500 above what something should actually be if done right. I am not in that situation.

Not saying you should buy your suit from Berg. I think you should buy from a company that will provide you with a better-looking suit on your body type. I think a worse buy is the one where you get a bad suit for less money.

Anyway, I wish I also got a VAT discount on my orders, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal when the prices are already so low. Eric's comment above to me seems more like an obsession with deal hunting, which I think ultimately hurts consumers as good brands won't stick around.
 

ericgereghty

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Seems bizarre to me to separate out the price from the product you're receiving, and thinking about whether what you're receiving is fair for the price.

I get that people are upset that VAT isn't discounted. When I purchased, I remember wondering where's the VAT discount. But I also realized that the prices are extremely fair for the quality of make and the styling of the items.

This sort of comparative bargain shopping is why the middle of the market is disappearing. People wonder why value-focused brands are struggling to survive. It's because people comparison shop to death. This is especially difficult on classic menswear brands because their items are treated like commodities, unlike Dries or Kapital, where the designs are more unique.

Anyway, obviously people can and should do what they want.
C'mon now, don't be obtuse, which is absolutely how that last post (meme one) reads. It's NOT the lack of a discount that is the deal breaking turn off, at least for me. Naturally, spending 20% less for a good is preferred, but it's not what renders them beyond any reasonable purchasing consideration, again, in my opinion.
Consumers were essentially lied to and ignored. Is it unreasonable to find that approach distasteful enough that one might refuse to make purchases on principle? Who likes knowingly being lied to?
If it's strictly a cost concern, then the notion of value is absolutely reasonable, and would be silly to ignore. Fair play to anybody who feels that way. That is not where I'm coming from in my assessment.
Maybe this is their reasoning as well? That they really cannot be bothered by overseas costumers as they still are a pretty small team running things?
Who could argue with this assessment? It's perfectly fair. A small, private company is under no obligation to cater to my needs/preferences. Again, just be honest. "Catering to US customers w/VAT reductions is not economically worth our time" is far easier to stomach than "we're working on it," especially when the latter jerk off extends nearly 2 years.
Not saying you should buy your suit from Berg. I think you should buy from a company that will provide you with a better-looking suit on your body type. I think a worse buy is the one where you get a bad suit for less money.

Anyway, I wish I also got a VAT discount on my orders, but it doesn't seem like that big of a deal when the prices are already so low. Eric's comment above to me seems more like an obsession with deal hunting, which I think ultimately hurts consumers as good brands won't stick around.
Again, c'mon now. You're obviously no dummy. How is "B&B is too expensive" really your assessment of my sentiments? I literally said the cost was not a concern (much less the primary one) for me. I don't like being lied to. I certainly don't like it when I know I'm being lied to. That's it.
FWIW, their free shipping floor is very reasonable, particularly from Europe. Returns aren't ideal (I think mine was around $50-60), and while I'd certainly prefer free returns, it certainly wouldn't rate as a serious problem.
 
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dieworkwear

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Consumers were essentially lied to and ignored. Is it unreasonable to find that approach distasteful enough that one might refuse to make purchases on principle? Who likes knowingly being lied to?

If you find the offense so great, then obviously that's your prerogative. I bought a polo shirt from them last year and didn't think the $30 difference was a big deal.
 

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