Beige sweaters question. Does anyone here wear beige sweaters and does it look creepy?

[Nobilis Animus]

I feel like the existence of Spier & Mackay and Proper Cloth invalidates a lot of this argument. They both use pretty renowned mills in various price points for shirts and trousers and so on.

This might have been true 10 years ago, but quality tailoring is way more affordable these days.

I haven't had any quality issues in the "too cheap to be of any real quality" price category for S&M.

They definitely have some good fits and fabrics. S&M doesn't make their clothing in Canada/USA though, as far as I know. That's one of my personal non-negotiables when looking at a new purchase, unfortunately.

Anyway, all I'm pointing out is that trousers at $400 is not a shocking price. I mean here we are talking about Savile Row suits and bespoke boots on a near-daily basis, for goodness' sake. A $10,000 suit is no big deal, but we balk at $400 for half of it? I think that's a bit odd.

 

[FlyingHorker]

They definitely have some good fits and fabrics. S&M doesn't make their clothing in Canada/USA though, as far as I know. That's one of my personal non-negotiables when looking at a new purchase, unfortunately.

Anyway, all I'm pointing out is that trousers at $400 is not a shocking price. I mean here we are talking about Savile Row suits and bespoke boots on a near-daily basis, for goodness' sake. A $10,000 suit is no big deal, but we balk at $400 for half of it? I think that's a bit odd.

Yeah that's correct, made in China and India for everything. My point was that you can have quality clothing from those countries.

Yep, $400 for trousers is not a shocking price, my point was that you can have great quality and fit for less, I don't consider it a baseline.

Honestly I'm not in the price point for any of that $10k suit or bespoke boot price point, for me that's worth more than my car, so I don't fall in that demographic. Most of the reason I started posting again on SF was after discovering lots of 'affordable tailoring' brands.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

Yeah that's correct, made in China and India for everything. My point was that you can have quality clothing from those countries.

Yep, $400 for trousers is not a shocking price, my point was that you can have great quality and fit for less, I don't consider it a baseline.

Honestly I'm not in the price point for any of that $10k suit or bespoke boot price point, for me that's worth more than my car, so I don't fall in that demographic. Most of the reason I started posting again on SF was after discovering lots of 'affordable tailoring' brands.

Right, and I wouldn't want to suggest that anyone who cannot readily afford those prices shouldn't be wearing classic clothing.

I've seen a lot of outfits with S&M that look great, for example. It would just be a shame if because a $150 S&M shirt looks good, a $500 T&A shirt would be considered "too expensive." It's neither - it's about getting what you want, whatever that happens to be.

 

[FlyingHorker]

Right, and I wouldn't want to suggest that anyone who cannot readily afford those prices shouldn't be wearing classic clothing.

I've seen a lot of outfits with S&M that look great, for example. It would just be a shame if because a $150 S&M shirt looks good, a $500 T&A shirt would be considered "too expensive." It's neither - it's about getting what you want, whatever that happens to be.

I agree with basically everything in this post.

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

The more expensive Turnbull and Asser shirts are sea island cotton, so yes they're more luxurious. Six bespoke shirts are priced at around $500 each for a bargain: https://trulyexperiences.com/us/bespoke-shirt-with-turnbull-asser.html Serviceable shirts can be had for less, but why settle for serviceable?

Perhaps it would clarify things if I explained my own approach: my version of very good trousers begins at hand stitching, excellent fit and fabric, a good fit at the waist while draping nicely, and made in Canada/USA or a European country. I have not been able to find these things at less than several hundred dollars, at the least. As I said, the one pair of khakis that I thought worth buying, even though I hardly ever wear them, was ~$450. I do own some in the $200-250 range, and those are basically disposable - spill wine over the front and toss kind of things (except for the jeans).

I don't turn up my nose at good deals, and I even stop by thrift shops to see if I can find the odd gem. But I suppose the level that I entertain as good enough clothing for me to purchase and own is fairly high. That may not be for everyone, but those are my standards.

1) My point is that less expensive shirts are not just serviceable, but good, perhaps even better than T&A in many cases. (I would also never wear T&A for stylistic reasons.) Also, does T&A do hand stitching? Also also, weren't you recently complaining about collar stays? Aren't T&A shirts meant to be worn with collar stays?

2) You changed from 'good' to 'very good', but I want to point out that hand stitching is merely a nice aesthetic touch and as such I don't see why that should be a requirement for good pants. Hand stitching may make clothes look nicer from very close-up, but it doesn't have much of a purpose beyond that.

3) The Canada/USA/Europe requirement seems pretty arbitrary to me.

 

[Blake Stitched Blues]

Every person that can spend $500 on a shirt is a policy failure

 

[dieworkwear]

I don't have much experience with the trouser brands mentioned earlier, but one of the upsides of expensive trousers is that the manufacturer is often more willing to leave extra material on the inside. This can be useful when you gain weight and have to let out the waistband. Or when you get the trousers and need to alter the back rise. I find that most trousers are made with a very long back rise. JefferyD once told me that this is done on purpose because it builds in comfort and will fit a wider range of people. But it can also leave a messy back seat. To get that fixed, you will need to shorten the back rise and let out the crotch, but doing so requires extra material.

I find discussions about fashion prices to be terribly depressing. I know fashion prices are getting out of hand, but the arguing back and forth about prices is just ... dispiriting because prices are the least interesting topic in fashion. Personally think it's more useful for people to figure out their specific needs, budgets, and fit issues. If you have postural issues and you are very particular about fit, it would be better to buy one pair of $400 trousers that fits well, rather than two pairs at $200 each that don't fit well.

Also think it's important to find clothes that emotionally resonate with you, not just clothes that clinically fit well and meet some "maximum value" calculation. I think a lot guys who build wardrobes that way eventually end up selling off a lot of their clothes once they develop their own point of view/ sense of taste. If a 100 Hands shirt makes you feel more excited, then great. If you also get that from a J. Crew shirt, also great.

My shirts are fully machine sewn and from Ascot Chang. I like them because of the fit and because I like the family behind the company. Someone may like another thing for another reason (I like a lot of clothes simply because I associate them with people I like and admire, even if it's random style figures).

 

[wkt]

I don't have much experience with the trouser brands mentioned earlier, but one of the upsides of expensive trousers is that the manufacturer is often more willing to leave extra material on the inside. This can be useful when you gain weight and have to let out the waistband. Or when you get the trousers and need to alter the back rise. I find that most trousers are made with a very long back rise. JefferyD once told me that this is done on purpose because it builds in comfort and will fit a wider range of people. But it can also leave a messy back seat. To get that fixed, you will need to shorten the back rise and let out the crotch, but doing so requires extra material.

I find discussions about fashion prices to be terribly depressing. I know fashion prices are getting out of hand, but the arguing back and forth about prices is just ... dispiriting because prices are the least interesting topic in fashion. Personally think it's more useful for people to figure out their specific needs, budgets, and fit issues. If you have postural issues and you are very particular about fit, it would be better to buy one pair of $400 trousers that fits well, rather than two pairs at $200 each that don't fit well.

Also think it's important to find clothes that emotionally resonate with you, not just clothes that clinically fit well and meet some "maximum value" calculation. I think a lot guys who build wardrobes that way eventually end up selling off a lot of their clothes once they develop their own point of view/ sense of taste. If a 100 Hands shirt makes you feel more excited, then great. If you also get that from a J. Crew shirt, also great.

My shirts are fully machine sewn and from Ascot Chang. I like them because of the fit and because I like the family behind the company. Someone may like another thing for another reason (I like a lot of clothes simply because I associate them with people I like and admire, even if it's random style figures).

Nobilis Animus has a net worth of 350 million dollars, he (and people at his level) just goes out and buys the clothes he wants, he doesn't fetishizes and deeply rationalize about clothes like you, he writes some superficial reasons why he wants a certain brand and convinces himself he is always right and everyone else is wrong and that is that.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

1) My point is that less expensive shirts are not just serviceable, but good, perhaps even better than T&A in many cases. (I would also never wear T&A for stylistic reasons.) Also, does T&A do hand stitching? Also also, weren't you recently complaining about collar stays? Aren't T&A shirts meant to be worn with collar stays?

2) You changed from 'good' to 'very good', but I want to point out that hand stitching is merely a nice aesthetic touch and as such I don't see why that should be a requirement for good pants. Hand stitching may make clothes look nicer from very close-up, but it doesn't have much of a purpose beyond that.

3) The Canada/USA/Europe requirement seems pretty arbitrary to me.

Fair enough, I readily admit that some of my idiosyncrasies are more about my own appreciation and enjoyment. T&A will do hand stitching, but their RTW shirts are machine made. I like collars with interlining, and simply throw out any collar stays.

I think you may be mistaken about hand stitching, and as to the latter point, I said it was my requirement. I have my reasons for it, including wanting to pay for a higher quality product and support traditional industries that are important to me.

There are some things you may appreciate about these types of clothing if you tried them sometime.

 

[Nobilis Animus]

Nobilis Animus has a net worth of 350 million dollars, he (and people at his level) just goes out and buys the clothes he wants, he doesn't fetishizes and deeply rationalize about clothes like you, he writes some superficial reasons why he wants a certain brand and convinces himself he is always right and everyone else is wrong and that is that.

I feel like I've found the person who wears $300 trousers.

 

[dieworkwear]

i only wear trousers that cost 420 or 69

 

[Nobilis Animus]

My trousers are so neat, they clean my house.

 

[TheShetlandSweater]

I don't have much experience with the trouser brands mentioned earlier, but one of the upsides of expensive trousers is that the manufacturer is often more willing to leave extra material on the inside. This can be useful when you gain weight and have to let out the waistband. Or when you get the trousers and need to alter the back rise. I find that most trousers are made with a very long back rise. JefferyD once told me that this is done on purpose because it builds in comfort and will fit a wider range of people. But it can also leave a messy back seat. To get that fixed, you will need to shorten the back rise and let out the crotch, but doing so requires extra material.

I find discussions about fashion prices to be terribly depressing. I know fashion prices are getting out of hand, but the arguing back and forth about prices is just ... dispiriting because prices are the least interesting topic in fashion. Personally think it's more useful for people to figure out their specific needs, budgets, and fit issues. If you have postural issues and you are very particular about fit, it would be better to buy one pair of $400 trousers that fits well, rather than two pairs at $200 each that don't fit well.

Also think it's important to find clothes that emotionally resonate with you, not just clothes that clinically fit well and meet some "maximum value" calculation. I think a lot guys who build wardrobes that way eventually end up selling off a lot of their clothes once they develop their own point of view/ sense of taste. If a 100 Hands shirt makes you feel more excited, then great. If you also get that from a J. Crew shirt, also great.

My shirts are fully machine sewn and from Ascot Chang. I like them because of the fit and because I like the family behind the company. Someone may like another thing for another reason (I like a lot of clothes simply because I associate them with people I like and admire, even if it's random style figures).

I mostly agree. Unlike one of the last times we spoke, this conversation wasn't about complaining about how expensive things have gotten or already are. I was arguing against the idea that good trousers need to cost at least $400. You can get good stuff for much less and be well-dressed for less. My original point was about not turning people off from menswear by making it inaccessible. I think this is an important point. The OP was turned off by how expensive some of the pants made by the brands I listed are.

The things that matter to me most in clothes are fit, fabric, and silhouette. I don't care about all the fancy stuff and fortunately I am a pretty easy fit in most respects. For pants at least, Natalino works well for me in these regards. They fit better than pants I have from places like Rota, I like the cut, and the fabrics are nice even if the make isn't the finest.

Fair enough, I readily admit that some of my idiosyncrasies are more about my own appreciation and enjoyment. T&A will do hand stitching, but their RTW shirts are machine made. I like collars with interlining, and simply throw out any collar stays.

I think you may be mistaken about hand stitching, and as to the latter point, I said it was my requirement. I have my reasons for it, including wanting to pay for a higher quality product and support traditional industries that are important to me.

There are some things you may appreciate about these types of clothing if you tried them sometime.

I have tried some of these things. They don't do much for me. I have several Orazio jackets, for instance. They have handmade buttonholes. I honestly don't care about that. It doesn't enhance my enjoyment of the garment at all. I like the jackets for their silhouette (especially the bigger sleeve-heads), the fabrics, the fit, and some other fun design features like the bigger lapels or the patch ticket pockets. For shirts, I wear OCBDs 99/100 times. The best oxfords are RTW without any handwork. Here I enjoy the fabric and the collar. Sweaters are my favorite things to wear and hand-sewing isn't a thing there.

Some people are into clothes for the luxury or craftsmanship, but I am not. I like fabrics, textures, and colors, and decent silhouettes. There are people who enjoy wearing the finest things out there because they are the finest things out there, but this is not me.

 

[wkt]

I feel like I've found the person who wears $300 trousers.

On a serious note, I would like to see some WAYWT pics of you, for real though, I want to see if you are as good-looking as the high-end clothes you wear, no judgement or criticism at all, I am asking because I am genuinely curious. I have to wonder how does someone at your high-end clothing level would dress, who has so much disposable income to spend such large amounts of money on clothes. Post some pics and settle it for us plebs and normies once and for all, will you please? Thank you.

 

[Phileas Fogg]