Baume & Mercier

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

What other watch company more embodies the term 'mall brand'?

I always think of Movado.

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by gdl203

I'm confused by your statement. AFAIK, the base ETA 2824 movement costs $80-130 depending on who buys it. How could a new watch with a genuine 2824 be sold for $40?
I meant this one:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthr...uen#post291562
They were commissioned by WalMart

, of all places, then got picked up by bargain-looking watch enthusiasts. Apparently, going prices on eBay are now $60-70 instead of the mere $40 about 6 months ago. And unless the manufacturer is blatantly lying, it cases a 2824, Swiss-made (how many %, I have no idea) movement.

In any case, I don't think the price you quote for the ETA 2824 movement is right. Is that before or after the price hike? I know for a fact that U.S.-based independent watchmakers (some with presence at PMWF) have been pricing 2824-based watches below $200 for years; no way their margins can be that severe.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by jbryanb

Seiko, Citizen, Fossil, Tag Heuer, etc. etc. All of these are what you typically see in malls, are cheaply made, and do not have any respect within the watch world. They are what would typically be considered "mall brands" watches, and I think it is ridiculous to put them in the same boat as a Baume & Mercier.

I'm somewhat well acquainted with the 'watch world', being somewhat of an enthusiast myself.

For the well-informed, Seiko is the most respected of the brands you've listed. In stating that all Seiko watches are 'cheaply made', I take you to be ignorant of the fact that Seiko produces watches worth several thousand dollars, including its Spring Drive and Grand Seiko watches. These watches are commonly understood by enthusiasts to be equal or superior in quality compared to Swiss-made watches at the same price level.

Citizen and Fossil watches are much less expensive than Baume & Mercier and virtually all of them use quartz or non-mechanical movements. In my estimation, they are a better value. I'm also not convinced that a Baume & Mercier is any better made.

'Mall brands' include Omega, Breitling, and Rolex. I have defended Rolex and Omega in the past, but that doesn't change the reputation they have--some of it deserved. Yet, for all of their 'Mall Brand'-ness, none offends more than Baume & Mercier. At least--with Omega, Breitling, or Rolex--you won't lose so much money on re-sale.

 

[gdl203]

Originally Posted by whacked

I meant this one:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthr...uen#post291562
They were commissioned by WalMart

, of all places, then got picked up by bargain-looking watch enthusiasts. Apparently, going prices on eBay are now $60-70 instead of the mere $40 about 6 months ago. And unless the manufacturer is blatantly lying, it cases a 2824, Swiss-made (how many %, I have no idea) movement.

In any case, I don't think the price you quote for the ETA 2824 movement is right. Is that before or after the price hike? I know for a fact that U.S.-based independent watchmakers (some with presence at PMWF) have been pricing 2824-based watches below $200 for years; no way their margins can be that severe.


OK. I understand how this can happen on eBay with overstocked lots of watches that seem to have been sold at a loss

You can check the aftermarket prices for yourself. Remember that the USD freefall is partially to blame for these prices too. Of course, wholesale prices to watch assembly companies will be probably 40-50% less than the prices on this site

http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/eta-movements.html

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by whacked

In any case, I don't think the price you quote for the ETA 2824 movement is right. Is that before or after the price hike? I know for a fact that U.S.-based independent watchmakers (some with presence at PMWF) have been pricing 2824-based watches below $200 for years; no way their margins can be that severe.

There may be some confusion here between the ETA 2824 and 2892. The 2892-A2 is more expensive and falls in the price range that Gdl203 indicates.

Also, the particular grade of the movement matters. ETA makes a 'chronometer' grade version of either movement that costs more.

 

[whacked]

Originally Posted by mafoofan

For the well-informed, Seiko is the most respected of the brands you've listed. In stating that all Seiko watches are 'cheaply made', I take you to be ignorant of the fact that Seiko produces watches worth several thousand dollars, including its Spring Drive and Grand Seiko watches. These watches are commonly understood by enthusiasts to be equal or superior in quality compared to Swiss-made watches at the same price level.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

'Mall brands' include Omega, Breitling, and Rolex. I have defended Rolex and Omega in the past, but that doesn't change the reputation they have--some of it deserved. Yet, for all of their 'Mall Brand'-ness, none offends more than Baume & Mercier. At least--with Omega, Breitling, or Rolex--you won't lose so much money on re-sale.
Agree on both points.

Originally Posted by mafoofan

Citizen and Fossil watches are much less expensive than Baume & Mercier and virtually all of them use quartz or non-mechanical movements.
I'd disagree on Citizen. Their well-priced automatic divers are equals to Seiko's offerings, at least among those in the know. Have you seen their Campanola collections? They look fantastic for the street price ($1K or so).

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by whacked

I'd disagree on Citizen. Their well-priced automatic divers are equals to Seiko's offerings, at least among those in the know. Have you seen their Campanola collections? They look fantastic for the street price ($1K or so).

I believe the mechanical movements used by Citizen are made by Miyota. These are probably as good as the most basic Seiko automatic movements, but are not manufactured by Citizen itself.

I'm not a fan of the Campanola watches. I don't understand the value of high-end finishing or complications in quartz movements. An electronic perpetual calendar isn't particularly difficult to execute and the fine finishing seems redundant when you've got no moving parts. It just seems a mis-guided vanity to me. But, hey, I also have reservations about Seiko's Spring Drive movement, as fantastic a technological achievement as it is.

 

[gdl203]

I'm with mafoo on Campanola. Don't get it. A quartz watch disguised into a grande complication?

 

[whacked]

Well, the models I like are all Eco-Drive. Despite still technically not mechanical, it doesn't necessarily carry the negative connotation that Quartz does. The finishing is second to none in their price range (MOP dials, huge curved crystals, hand-applied lacquer... artisan-made everthing

). Not a bad choice at all for those into complications IMO.

 

[SoCal2NYC]

I'd add Tag to the Mall Brands.

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by SoCal2NYC

I'd add Tag to the Mall Brands.

Ah, how could I have forgotten?

 

[LabelKing]

Baume & Mercier is a consummate petit-bourgeois brand, for those who either can't or won't afford a Rolex, and think that a giant SWISS-MADE conveys taste and pedigree like buying shoddy English hunting prints at a Bombay Company suggests class.

 

[Torontoguy]

Wow, I had no idea my original question would get so much response. Thanks for the various opinions. It seems that that majority think B&M is not a great watch or value. For a guy who does not know much about watches (but is trying to learn more) can you please let me know your thoughts on 1. what are the important things I should look for when buying a watch and 2. what brands provide the best quality in the $2,000 range and 3. Is IWC good and how much do they cost (great looking watch on page 109 of this month's GQ).

Thanks

 

[sho'nuff]

Originally Posted by whacked

I meant this one:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/showthr...uen#post291562
They were commissioned by WalMart

, of all places, then got picked up by bargain-looking watch enthusiasts. Apparently, going prices on eBay are now $60-70 instead of the mere $40 about 6 months ago. And unless the manufacturer is blatantly lying, it cases a 2824, Swiss-made (how many %, I have no idea) movement.

In any case, I don't think the price you quote for the ETA 2824 movement is right. Is that before or after the price hike? I know for a fact that U.S.-based independent watchmakers (some with presence at PMWF) have been pricing 2824-based watches below $200 for years; no way their margins can be that severe.

i got that same exact Gruen watch last year for $40 . it has an ETA 2824 movement. (she did charge me 10 for shipping, so basically a fifty dollar watch; i bought 2 more and gave them as small gifts to my dad and brother-in-law , they love it and still wear it today)

 

[TheFoo]

Originally Posted by Torontoguy

Wow, I had no idea my original question would get so much response. Thanks for the various opinions. It seems that that majority think B&M is not a great watch or value. For a guy who does not know much about watches (but is trying to learn more) can you please let me know your thoughts on 1. what are the important things I should look for when buying a watch and 2. what brands provide the best quality in the $2,000 range and 3. Is IWC good and how much do they cost (great looking watch on page 109 of this month's GQ).

Thanks

1. Watch nerds look at things like movement quality/design, case design/finishing, complications, and brand history--subjectively weighted of course. It's hard to judge these things without taking the time to educate yourself. Take a look at thepurists.com and timezone.com. Otherwise, you can rely on the reputation of the maker. Makers that produce their own movements ('manufactures') tend to be more prestigious amongst collectors. Some include: Jaeger LeCoultre, IWC, Rolex, Patek, Audemars, Vacheron, A. Lange, Breguet, Blancpain, etc.

2. For $2000, assuming you're looking at new watches, I'd consider an Omega. To me, watches get much more interesting at ~$3,000. At that price point, entry level watches by some of the best makers become available, like IWC's Pilot watches or Jaeger LeCoultre's Reverso and Master Control watches.

3. IWC is one of the best watchmakers. Their regular production watches range from ~$2,500 to ~$100,000. They are one of the few Swiss makers that remained continously operational through the 70's and 80's and never ceased production of mechanical movements. Lower-end IWCs often use outsourced ETA movements that it upgrades extensively. Higher-end IWCs use the company's own in-house movements. The Pilot line, Portuguese line, and Ingenieur line are all iconic.