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Australian Members

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by earthdragon, Nov 18, 2008.

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  1. JimmyHoffa

    JimmyHoffa Senior member

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    You can customise all of that when ordering a suit from Patrick. If you want your breast pocket moved up 1 cm from the 'pattern' suit you are wearing, they can do that for you.

    So by your definition, Patrick is bespoke.
     
  2. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    With bespoke, a pattern is drafted specifically for you from scratch. With MTM, a pre-existing pattern is altered to suit you. A tailor is someone who can draft and cut a pattern, as well as measure and offer fit/style advice etc. A fitter is someone who measures you and offers fit/style advice, but is unable to draft/cut a pattern.

    Now, you can get superb results going either bespoke or MTM, so that's all that matters to the customer at the end of the day (as well as price factors), but bespoke is bespoke, and MTM is MTM (and a tailor is a tailor and a fitter a fitter) and I will never alter my opinion on that!
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
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  3. charliechan

    charliechan Senior member

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    It will be good to hear more about Zink & Sons ... can you comment on the quality / fit of your suit Wraith?
     
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  4. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    Excellent quality and fit (both suit and sport coat were from Holland & Sherry wool, both had a full floating canvas with horn buttons etc.), though that was my first bespoke experience and I've honed my fit to an even better level since then. That's how it goes with both bespoke and MTM. It gets better as you go along.

    Both Robert and Daniel Jones were incredibly friendly and knowledgeable of the industry and the craft of bespoke tailoring. Robert regaled me with anecdotes of the past (he's been at this game since the 1960s after all) that both educated and entertained me. They'll gladly take you on a tour of the upstairs workroom, too, if you like, to see your (and other) garments being made onsite.

    btw, Zink also do MTM as well as bespoke, for those price conscious customers out there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  5. Arch3r

    Arch3r Senior member

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    This.

    Bespoke - going to an architect to design you a house from the ground up.

    MTM - Going to X estate and picking a house off the plans, you get to move stuff around and tweak it but it wasn't designed from the ground up for you.

    On Zink & Sons, I spoke to Daniel around a year ago and prices seemed pretty reasonable MTM from $1500 Bespoke from $2k. They had some great stuff there, very English. There are some very out there pieces in their gallery online as well if that's your cup of tea. Unless I inherit the clan fortune and move to Scotland to spend my days hunting and strolling I won't be going for that sort of thing =P

    On PJ being called a 'tailor' technically he isn't is my understanding but its not like we are calling a cat a dog. People call Heston a chef but he isn't formally trained does that mean he's only a cook or a food enthusiast? Food for thought...
     
  6. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    ^ Exactly right. At the end of the day, while the job descriptions are what they are, all that matters is that you get exactly the quality product you want and can afford, from whomever is supplying said product. No issue there at all.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2014
  7. nabilmust

    nabilmust Senior member

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    This is becoming a shitfest.

    In sum, and I'm starting to regret even starting:

    Patrick isn't bespoke. MS, your understanding of bespoke is a little superficial. Quoting the dictionary isn't going to help. A little background might help: true bespoke when it started, or when clothes were 'spoken for' someone, it was made so specifically for that one person that he was the only person who had that fabric.But that was back then. This meaning has diluted.

    In a very elementary way, the dichotomy, like Wraith has mentioned: is the pattern. Do you work off a block? MTM. Do you cut a brand new pattern for someone? Bespoke.

    Cox: What you get at TF and Canali's boutique, is another example of what the meaning of MTM has diluted to. What you're getting is really OTR, with a highly adjustable parameters. It's already been made but not to your measure; it is then finished to your adjustments. Zegna used to have an MTM program, then it faded, and they're resurrecting it.


    @Gazman and @cemi1988 -

    There is no debate whether they are bespoke or not. That's been settled, at least in my eyes.

    The real debate is whether they should be correcting every article or publication that mischaracterises them as bespoke. I suppose it gets tiring and it distracts one from their focus: making clothes.

    It's all a bit like if people wish me Merry Christmas, and I have to keep replying: oh no, I'm not Christian.
     
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  8. CHECKstar

    CHECKstar Senior member

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    I have him a dollar... I thought he'd go away...
     
  9. Gazman

    Gazman Member

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    Fair enough. I'm bloody sorry I raised the issue. Was not aware it was such a hot issue on this forum. I raised it in response to another member posting a link to a recent article feature P Johnson. Have a good day.
     
  10. Sartorial Scum

    Sartorial Scum Senior member

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    ^This
     
  11. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    Don't worry about it, Gaz. Hang in there.
     
  12. nabilmust

    nabilmust Senior member

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    Gazman, I have been untowardly harsh towards you. I apologise.
     
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  13. ovlov

    ovlov Senior member

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    I gotta say the bespoke mislabeling Is a big issue for me too. Cod to me it speaks to either a - not knowing your own product or b - dishonest marketing. That said you can't blame PJ for how others label them. One not insignificant reason I decided to try Suit Shop and later PJ out was because they are one if the few mtm businesses that don't market themselves as providing 'bespoke' suiting.
     
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  14. Coxsackie

    Coxsackie Senior member

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    I'm glad we are having this debate, even if it's all been done before. I'm learning a lot.
     
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  15. TheWraith

    TheWraith Senior member

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    +1 to both.
     
  16. cemi1988

    cemi1988 Well-Known Member

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    i'm definitely not suggesting pjohnson is under some duty to correct every publication incorrectly characterising their wares as bespoke.

    my observations were more directed to this forum, where the consensus as far as pjohnson goes is (and obviously i'm paraphrasing here) that the distinction between bespoke and mtm, and tailor and fitter isn't necessarily important as long as you're happy with the product.

    however, if your label was sjackson tailors and not pjohnson tailors this would, of course, be different.
     
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  17. nabilmust

    nabilmust Senior member

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    (a) you weren't suggesting it, but that's where the discussion started.

    (b) not in my books - but I rarely throw my book at anyone so I hope my silence isn't interpreted as acquiescence.
     
  18. Gerry Nelson

    Gerry Nelson Senior member

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    I always thought you were sprezzaturan.
     
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  19. Dusty Brogues

    Dusty Brogues Senior member

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    My wife just bought a pair for the leading man in the house, my son who's three....
     
  20. nabilmust

    nabilmust Senior member

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