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Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by earthdragon, Nov 18, 2008.

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  1. lachyzee

    lachyzee Senior member

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    Hmm never heard of that problem. That sucks :(

    Still to my eye casual shirts look a bit strange without a pocket. In much the same way as I think a casual shirt without a placket would look strange. Just personal preference though.

    I do think that OCBD and perhaps even BDs in general have some unwritten rules for their construction though i.e. placket, pocket and box pleat...
     


  2. Journeyman

    Journeyman Senior member

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    +1. I definitely prefer my OCBD shirts and my more casual shirts to have pockets, front plackets, and a box-pleat at the back - it just seems odd to go against tradition and to have them made differently.

    Given the inherently casual nature of a popover shirt, I think that a pocket is appropriate.

    For those people that don't like pockets, it's actually quite easy to remove them as long as you have a little "quick unpick" tool from a sewing kit or a pair of surgical scissors. Unpick the stitches, remove the pocket, give the shirt a wash and iron it, and any thread holes should disappear. I've done it on a couple of Borrelli business shirts that had pockets without any problems.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012


  3. The Ernesto

    The Ernesto Senior member

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    I don't quite get the button down pop over. Just seems odd to me. But that's just me...
     


  4. lachyzee

    lachyzee Senior member

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    EPs point collar popover shirt is here:

    http://www.epauletshop.com/servlet/the-1620/''Mens-Cutaway-Collar-Blue/Detail

    I love this brand in general, but I think this shirt doesn't quite know what it's trying to be. The placket is too long, and the stiff cutaway collar makes it look too formal. I also don't think a severe cutaway collar works on a shirt like this where you're going to be wearing it unbuttoned to a fair way down - the collar ends up lying completely horizontally which I don't really like.

    I guess I just think the popover is an inherently casual item, and any attempt to make it more formal just confuses things. I also prefer the american BD version to the Italo version posted in that photo earlier, but I can see good qualities in both.

    My general taste is more to the American side of menswear than the Euro side (whereas most in this thread seem to lean more towards the Euro side of things) so that probably explains it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012


  5. The Ernesto

    The Ernesto Senior member

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    Good observation.

    I find myself in the euro camp on this one but now see that there is a continental difference in the approach.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012


  6. sliq

    sliq Senior member

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    likewise. hasn't grown on me yet.
     


  7. fxh

    fxh Senior member

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    The pop-over or pull-over has a noble history. Originally all shirts were pop overs. Underwear and tucked in.

    The popover long sleeve looks best with longer placket and 4 or 5 buttons. Space between buttons can be altered.

    These days it tends to look more casual, and therefore should, correctly, be more textured material, say Oxford, and back pleat and pocket. It looks best with a generous fit rather than too fitted.

    The collar needs to be soft and long points. Relaxed. No cutaway which is dress shirt/formal territory and would send a confusing message - and not look congruent. . If the collar is going to be button down it needs to look generous and have a roll not be stingy.

    There is also another model of pop-over - a shirt sleeved one and closer to a polo. This one works with a smaller length placket, say 2 or 3 buttons, and often worn not tucked in.

    I'm guessing doing both doesn't make any business sense.

    I'm also guessing you know what you want - but you did ask.

    I'd suggest:

    Look at the history and not go too far away but do it with current demands. That is people now wear shirts untucked a lot. (Too much but thats for another time) Combine the best of both the long sleeve and short sleeve and placket models in a shirt that can be worn untucked and tucked. Short sleeved and long sleeved, with jeans and shorts and slightly more smarter. (not theres much difference these days)..

    Textured cloth, oxford or linen etc, pale blue and / or white, solid colour - simple no distractions. Stripes will make it look like a grandpa night shirt. Checks, say Madras, only compute on a short sleeved model worn untucked.

    Long sleeves, - people can always roll them up to make a short sleeve - either below elbow like a grown up or above elbow like James Dean or Joe Strummer.

    Pocket a must - no pocket and it will look like a nightshirt. Patch pocket - a flap and button takes it better towards jean territory - but many don't like them.

    Collar must be soft, medium high and long peaks. Button down, or not, is ok. If button down must have roll and generosity.

    Back pleat plus locker tab and back collar button would be a nice touch but most people wouldn't notice.

    I'd even suggest thinking of a flap pocket.

    Shouldn't be too fitted. Remember it will mainly be worn casual and open necked and without jacket. Also remember old "rule", tight /fitted below - loose up top . tight fitted up top - looser below.

    Possibly people will also wear it with shorts. (yes people do wear shorts. sigh)

    People will wont to wear it untucked as well. Therefore it shouldn't be too long, but long enough to tuck in if needed, and perhaps a straight bottom edge. And perhaps straight , parallel fit rather than blousey (or too waisted) in order to hang right worn untucked.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012


  8. fxh

    fxh Senior member

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    See how the third one doesn't work at all - too fitted and I think its a knit maybe. Placket ends too high for long sleeves..
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012


  9. Smudge

    Smudge Senior member

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    +1 (patch pocket gets my vote)
     


  10. fxh

    fxh Senior member

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    Now this even makes me want to wear one:
    [​IMG]
     


  11. The Ernesto

    The Ernesto Senior member

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    Holy hell. Put a wombat on it and they'll be everywhere this summer.
     


  12. lachyzee

    lachyzee Senior member

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    Nice write up FXH, you've essentially described the Gant Rugger popover I posted earlier :satisfied:

    The only point I disagree on is the "long" placket as I said (that third shirt is a gant rugger model with a shorter placket). Might be outvoted on this one though!

    I agree that the BD collar needs to be nice and high and with a roll - Romp's sample collar looks a bit flat, but that's probably from being crushed in packaging.

    Another thing I would point out is that I thing they need to be tight down the bottom - I have owned a popover that was loose around the bottom and it looked sloppy, like an oversized t shirt or something

    I do imagine that Romp doesn't just want to simple copy the Gant Rugger one posted earlier of course though (and the many other manufacturers who do Oxford Cloth Button Down Popovers), and to that end I personally have never seen someone do a BD collar popover in a linen or linen/cotton blend.

    So I think it's a fantastic idea and very appropriate for summer, both in the style and fabric choice.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012


  13. joiji

    joiji Senior member

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    Sorry to go off the current topic but I just wanted to shout out to RHD in Adelaide if anyone's looking for demin. Andy and his staff are great and are willing to take time to size you well, as well as let you be picky as hell with how everything fits. And the price is almost no markup to equivalent world pricing.
     


  14. Romp

    Romp Affiliate Vendor

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    Thanks for your infinite wisdom fxh.

    OK I think button down with plenty of roll is what would be perfect. Maybe even a double buttoned collar if I increase collar stand height as well

    All the features that you mention are options i can tick i.e. locker tab, rear collar button and patch/flap/buttoned pocket.

    I think Im leaning to the generous BD w/roll and plain patch pocket. Box pleat is the norm however I like the drape and silhouette of side pleats.

    my sample is a 4 button placket id just be curious as to what a 3 button would look like. Ill get some photos again later - this isnt my size though as James sourced the pop-over. The length is good - alot shorter than our current shirts and finishes mid-fly.
     


  15. fxh

    fxh Senior member

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    Great minds think alike -or - Fools never differ.
     


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