Australian Members - Part II - if you read the first post, you'll get what this is all about.

[Prince of Paisley]

How many villages could you save for the cost of a trip to Switzerland?

$100 plane ticket
Stayed with my girlfriend for $0
$50 in food for the weekend - bought groceries and ate some ice cream

If there's a village I could save for that, point me that way.

Wouldn't it have been cheaper still to just see Switzerland from up there on your high horse?

 

[Prince of Paisley]



PoP, come and meet me in the Kasbah. We will make beautiful music togezzer.

I'm not interested in commissioning any original music; I'm saving up for a new Rolex.

 

[Geoffrey Firmin]



I do sympathise with the sentiment behind Hornermatt's anti-watch rant.

However I think he's missing an important point. He mentions funding artists, composers etc - that is, creative artists.

But in fact, high-end watchmakers are a kind of creative artist. Admittedly at the craftsman/artisan end of that spectrum.

There are giant, steaming quantities of bullshit associated with the high-end mechanical watch industry, to be sure. But some of the actual pieces are miniature masterpieces of human skill, ingenuity, creativity and artistry all rolled into one.

Public funding of art and music tends to result in **** art and music. The best stuff doesn't need philanthropy in order to emerge from the mind of the genius who creates it. It's funded by people who wish to own it themselves; and eventually it finds its way into the public domain. To some extent, this might even be true of timepieces.

There has been an explosion in the number of bespoke craftsmen over the previous years. From people who have bought back to productive life antique fabric mills, all variety of bespoke clothing and footwear and other hand made accessories and I think the correct term for them is artisan as defined by numerous dictionaries.

A creative artist IMHO is someone who creates an original work of art in their chosen field of personal expression in what is or is not culturally accepted arts practice. The Artisan makes individual 'works' of beauty and are paid and admired for their work.

An Artist makes work that can turn the world on its head, challenge convention, lift you up or plunge you into despair the new Nick Cave album is one such experience. Their is a clear gulf between the two.

Public funding if memory serves correct was in the both the realm of music and painting was provided in employment and sponsorship by nobles as in the case of Mozart and Prince-Archbishop Hieronymus Colorado. Bach was also employed by the (then) state.

 

[Coxsackie]

OK, artisan it is.

Anyway my point was mainly that high-end watches are amazing things in themselves, and we should not hate on them simply because the people who can afford to buy them might not always be our cup of tea.

Where I do agree with Matt - well, I think I agree with him, although he didn't explicitly state the reasoning behind his statement - is that the luxury goods industry in general is a pretty tawdry space. We are being brainwashed to equip ourselves with all sorts of unnecessary branded goods and gewgaws, the subliminal message being that we are joining some kind of elite by doing so.

Given that the only qualification for membership of said elite is disposable income, it's basically reinforcing the message that the only important thing in life is money.

You could argue that menswear fits into this category, but I dispute that. Membership of the menswear elite cannot simply be purchased (although the folding stuff does help). You have to learn the principles of good taste, colour and texture matching, and some idea of historical context. A different set of guidelines apply to streetwear/fashionwear, but it's still not straightforward. Perhaps even less so.

I have a number of watch collector friends who have low to average incomes. They restrict their purchases to vintage timepieces or new watches with unusual features, often from obscure sources, which have special horological value. One example from my own collection is my Stowa Marine Original - a limited-edition watch with an attractively decorated Unitas movement, blued-steel hands and screws, and a dial design which makes specific reference to marine chronometers. All this for less than $1000. Brand cachet is zero, but it is an intrinsically handsome and interesting watch which looks good on my wrist and is occasionally admired by others.

Any of us who has put together a well-chosen, well-fitting, tasteful outfit from thrifted, sale-purchased and/or affiliate vendor sourced elements, can feel a similar sense of achievement when their dress sense is complimented.

OTOH anyone with cash can go and buy a Rolex President or a Hermès Birkin and show it off. They can be sure that any positive feedback they receive from flashing these items is underpinned by envy and resentment - which are most likely precisely the sentiments they wish to trigger.

 

[Geoffrey Firmin]

Many years ago a friend of mine a Jazz saxophonist went to Europe for a couple of years and bought Porsche 911 Turbo. He could never afford to buy one here but was able to buy one in Europe and ship it back. He was honest from the start about buying it to pick up women. It worked.

Style is the cultivation of taste and experience over time which produces an evolving personal aesthetic. Money can't buy that.

 

[The Ernesto]



One example from my own collection is my Stowa Marine Original - a limited-edition watch with an attractively decorated Unitas movement, blued-steel hands and screws, and a dial design which makes specific reference to marine chronometers.

Such a nice watch.

 

[am55]

Many years ago a friend of mine a Jazz saxophonist went to Europe for a couple of years and bought Porsche 911 Turbo. He could never afford to buy one here but was able to buy one in Europe and ship it back. He was honest from the start about buying it to pick up women. It worked.

Our biggest regret moving from London to Sydney a few years back was not "importing" a second hand Aston the same way. Buy for $30,000, own for a year, resell for $120,000.

There is literally no reason for the import rules anymore, since the Australian car industry is all but defunct. Australia - except for its overly strict speed limits - is a driver's paradise and it's about time the government let people buy nice things. I'd also be up for Autobahn-like no-speed-limit highways between cities (the roos just make it more exciting).

 

[am55]

One example from my own collection is my Stowa Marine Original - a limited-edition watch with an attractively decorated Unitas movement, blued-steel hands and screws, and a dial design which makes specific reference to marine chronometers. All this for less than $1000. Brand cachet is zero, but it is an intrinsically handsome and interesting watch which looks good on my wrist and is occasionally admired by others.

First, nice choice. It's been high up on my to-buy for years.

Second, I disagree that its brand cachet is zero - amongst the watch crowd it has a great reputation (for its intrinsic qualities). Which I guess is your point.

My only hangup with Stowa is that my ancestors fought its wearers. "Yes grandma, that's a Flieger B-Uhr... it used to be worn by Luftwaffe pilots" not going to go down well at family reunions.

 

[fxh]



OK, artisan it is.

Given that the only qualification for membership of said elite is disposable income, a credit card it's basically reinforcing the message that the only important thing in life is money.

OTOH anyone with cash can go and buy a Rolex President or a Hermès Birkin and show it off. They can be sure that any positive feedback they receive from flashing these items is underpinned by envy and resentment - which are most likely precisely the sentiments they wish to trigger.

OK, artisan it is.

Given that the only qualification for membership of said elite is disposable income, a credit card it's basically reinforcing the message that the only important thing in life is money.

OTOH anyone with cash credit card can go and buy a Rolex President or a Hermès Green Leather Breast Wallet and show it off. They can be sure that any positive feedback they receive from flashing these items is underpinned by envy and resentment - which are most likely precisely the sentiments they wish to trigger.

Last night I was dining at a high end restaurant and 2 companions ostentatiously bought out their Hermès Green Leather Breast Wallet . I searched my psyche deeply to try to dredge up some envy and resentment to make them feel the purchase was worthwhile. I failed to even be able to fake the sincerity with my envy.

 

[TheWraith]

^ Was one of them the Foo? :foo:

 

[The Ernesto]

We can't discuss that at this time.

 

[Mqxwqll]

When the rain descends on our nations capital but you swore the weather man would be wrong and went as bright as possible

 

[LonerMatt]

Wouldn't it have been cheaper still to just see Switzerland from up there on your high horse?

10/10 Well played.

 

[LonerMatt]

OK, artisan it is.

Anyway my point was mainly that high-end watches are amazing things in themselves, and we should not hate on them simply because the people who can afford to buy them might not always be our cup of tea.

Where I do agree with Matt - well, I think I agree with him, although he didn't explicitly state the reasoning behind his statement - is that the luxury goods industry in general is a pretty tawdry space. We are being brainwashed to equip ourselves with all sorts of unnecessary branded goods and gewgaws, the subliminal message being that we are joining some kind of elite by doing so.

Given that the only qualification for membership of said elite is disposable income, it's basically reinforcing the message that the only important thing in life is money.

You could argue that menswear fits into this category, but I dispute that. Membership of the menswear elite cannot simply be purchased (although the folding stuff does help). You have to learn the principles of good taste, colour and texture matching, and some idea of historical context. A different set of guidelines apply to streetwear/fashionwear, but it's still not straightforward. Perhaps even less so.

I have a number of watch collector friends who have low to average incomes. They restrict their purchases to vintage timepieces or new watches with unusual features, often from obscure sources, which have special horological value. One example from my own collection is my Stowa Marine Original - a limited-edition watch with an attractively decorated Unitas movement, blued-steel hands and screws, and a dial design which makes specific reference to marine chronometers. All this for less than $1000. Brand cachet is zero, but it is an intrinsically handsome and interesting watch which looks good on my wrist and is occasionally admired by others.

Any of us who has put together a well-chosen, well-fitting, tasteful outfit from thrifted, sale-purchased and/or affiliate vendor sourced elements, can feel a similar sense of achievement when their dress sense is complimented.

OTOH anyone with cash can go and buy a Rolex President or a Hermès Birkin and show it off. They can be sure that any positive feedback they receive from flashing these items is underpinned by envy and resentment - which are most likely precisely the sentiments they wish to trigger.

We're in sort of agreement. You're coming at this from a 'well it's bought not earned' perspective - which is would agree is definitely true.

I'm coming from a 'wow that guy bought a watch that was $x00,000 and wealth disparity really gets me down' perspective. I guess, you know, having picked kids up for school from homes where both parents are drug addicts (in one case with a needle in the arm) it's kind of sickly to see the gleeful consumerism in the face of that. You know, and that's about it - it's just a sickly feeling.

It's one thing to gleefully spend a relatively trivial amount - who cares? It's another just to see a six figure sum vanish so some garish rich fuckwit can weigh down his wrist with some bling.

Yeah yeah it's a free liberal world and maybe that guy worked for his money (doubt it), maybe he deserves to spend it the way he wants (disagree with that) and maybe he pays his fair share of taxes (like ****) so his debt to society is paid. Maybe he saved for years slaving away to get the watch (uh huh) and I guess if any of those things are true for watches that cost as much as houses I'll apologise and eat my words.

yeah yeah I'm a judgemental prick who is definitely not doing anyone any favours on a forum that sometimes revolves around wanton consumerism, but whatever sometimes you gotta say what's on your mind.

 

[Petepan]

Yeah yeah it's a free liberal world and maybe that guy worked for his money (doubt it), maybe he deserves to spend it the way he wants (disagree with that) and maybe he pays his fair share of taxes (like ****) so his debt to society is paid. Maybe he saved for years slaving away to get the watch (uh huh) and I guess if any of those things are true for watches that cost as much as houses I'll apologise and eat my words.

Who is this guy??