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Armed robbery

Discussion in 'Social Life, Food & Drink, Travel' started by NavyStyles, May 3, 2004.

  1. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    I like that. Vero, I don;t believe that *you* just made up a great new slogan for the anti-gun lobby. That, and coming up with a reasonably coherent form of objectivism all my your lonesome. You must be some type of savant. Or some wierd oracle or something.
     
  2. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Senior member

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    ...i don't get that sense at all. [​IMG] anyway, re. tear gas, it's a totally different animal from a gun. not that it's better or worse for home security, it just carries a different set of benefits and hazards. and some of the hazards could prove just as fatal as a gun, when used in the wrong hands. /andrew
     
  3. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Senior member

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    I would rather not mess around with the potential uncertainity of tear gas or weapons of that type, its not like you have practice runs to see how it spreads, you could end up incapacitating yourself and not the attackers. I would rather take my chances with home defense given my inherent advantages, 1) better knowledge of the surroundings, 2) the element of surprise 3) most likely superior firepower.
     
  4. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    not to be an argumentative newbie here, but pretty much unless you lock a person in a room full of teargas, it is almost impossible to kill a healthy person with it. on the other hand, a room full of tear gas will make almost anybody change their plans.

    a gun is about killing - if you touch a gun, you need to be ready to kill, or be killed. and if you have one around long enough, there is a good chance somebody will be dead. guns make killing very very easy.

    my basic idea is simple - if I fire tear gas at somebody, both he and I will be in some pain for a period of time, and then we will get better. I need to think if I am willing to take the pain, but I don't have to think for second if I am willing to kill him. on the other hand, I can solve the problem and all of us get to go home to our loved ones, eventually.

    if I draw a knife, or a gun, then there is a good chance that I will leave somebody dead, and a good chance that I will get killed in the process. that is playing for keeps.
     
  5. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Senior member

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    As I mentioned before, there are too many uncertanities for me in that equation. What if he isn't affected by the tear gas as much as I am, and can fire a weapon? What if he got slightly affected, gets pissed, and decides to set fire to my house? What if my kids have an allergic reaction to it? What if he didn't even have a gun, but a knife or a metal bar, or whatever, and it was an situation I could easily remedy at gunpoint?
     
  6. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    I understand. I myself am more worried about having a gun in the house, and I don't feel that I am up to the responsibility that I would feel about having a gun in the house. I believe (and I am not the authority on the matter) that in the end it is more dangerous to have a gun around your family, and that most people aren't safe enough in handling their guns. I also think that the chance of waking up in the middle of the night and putting up a good gunfight is pretty slim for non-pro's.

    I have a pretty good feeling about tear gas, although you are right, if somebody comes into my house with a shotgun I will be outgunned. on the other hand, I am not sure that I want to get into a shooting match in my sheetrock house with my kid and wife around. and I don't know that many people who will keep firing in a cloud of tear gas.
     
  7. vero_group

    vero_group Senior member

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    You could say that ... [​IMG]
     
  8. ken

    ken Senior member

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    This tear-gas argument seems a little ridiculous. Gas is uncontrollable; it'll go anywhere the hallways let it. Something so unpredictable isn't suitable for home defense. Besides, most law-enforcers use tear gas to flush criminals out of a building, then point LOTS of guns at him. If they didn't have guns, the criminal would walk away, so it's really the guns and not the tear gas preventing the crime.

    A better alternative for home defense would be a taser. Please get one and throw away your tear gas (maybe in the alley to give the strays something to think about). I'd hate it if you were dissapointed w/your home defense strategy at the critical time when you need it.

    Anyways, I grew up w/lots of guns in the house. I never felt unsafe, but the guns were mostly used for sport and target shooting, i.e. hobby guns. Just like I would never spend $300 on a jacket, so shouldn't you ever have to own a gun if you don't want to. But it's nice that people CAN spend $300 on jackets, and it's nice that I can own guns.

    Besides, the chances of two forum members meeting in a robbery where the deciding factor is the killing-power of their weapons is a little moot... no?
     
  9. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    actually some good points -

    "Gas is uncontrollable; it'll go anywhere the hallways let it. Something so unpredictable isn't suitable for home defense. Besides, most law-enforcers use tear gas to flush criminals out of a building, then point LOTS of guns at him. If they didn't have guns, the criminal would walk away, so it's really the guns and not the tear gas preventing the crime."

    good point, I am not in the business of catching criminals, and I would rather not kill them. I want them out of my house, as quickly as possible. I would like them to be in enough discomfort so that they will leave quickly and without stopping to molest my family. if I have to get out of the house too, and take my family, and possilby air out my house the next day, i figure that that is a pretty fair exchange for having to clean blood off my carpets and fix a half dozen large holes in the drywall.

    "A better alternative for home defense would be a taser. "
    aside from being less lethal to an adult, a taser is just like a gun. requires a commitment to keep it safe and know how to use it, and can kill little kids who play with it. a shotgun is a hell of a lot easier to use than a taser. and, a taser fires once (although maybe there are now models that fire twice). do you really want to wake up at 3 am and shoot somebody with something that gives you one chance and requires you to be within 10 meters?


    "Anyways, I grew up w/lots of guns in the house. I never felt unsafe,"

    really, no offence meant, but that isn't a good thing. I spent 3 years with an assult rifle and 140 rounds always within arms reach (literally, slept with it, took it to the shower, lost my virginity with it under the bed) and then another 10 years with a 9mm handgun with me at all times. I treated them like they could kill me at any time. that is the way firearms should be treated. I could see having a firearm in a safe in the house, I would never have "lots of guns" in a house with kids, in my humble opinion, that is a reciepe for disaster.

    " ...and it's nice that I can own guns."

    I think that it is important that you can own guns (or, in my mind better, a gun). I don't exactly think that it is nice. guns aren't (in my opinion) a hobby, they are a way to kill people. if you have a gun around, it is because you should be ready to kill or be killed.

    "Besides, the chances of two forum members meeting in a robbery where the deciding factor is the killing-power of their weapons is a little moot... no? "

    actually, I figure the chance of anybody breaking into my house with the intention of killing or hurting my family is extremly small (my town has had 2 homicides in 25 years, one when a bank robber got lost on his gettaway and one when a gang member from nyc came out and got into a fight with some idiot local kids). if they are coming to take stuff, let them I am insured. the chance that they are coming to rape or kill us, and are well armed and tough enough to stick around when I start yelling and flooding the house with tear gas then they are probrably well enough armed and tough enough to take me even if I have a shotgun.
     
  10. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Senior member

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    I guess it depends on your situation and other factors. As mentioned previously, I've had my houses/apartments broken into on three occasions by armed potential assailants and dealt with the situation on each occasion with a loaded weapon. If I hadn't been armed, who knows how the situations would have turned out?
     
  11. ken

    ken Senior member

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    Thanks for arguing against my both-sides-can-win argument.

    If a criminal holes up in a closed off room (I know gas can seep under doors, but it will be slower and give him some time to react), he could still cause damage if he decides to react violently toward your mal intent. Tear gas doesn't paralyze you (in a loose sense of the word) like a taser does, and he could be concious enough to fire a weapon wildly or whatever. Now, I have absolutely no experience w/tasers, but I think you can switch out the air cartridges so they can fire again. No, I don't know how long this takes, but the advantage is that you can hit anywhere on the target's body and it'll do the same damage. Even groggy, most people could probably hit an average-sized man at 10 meters.

    I'm not sure why you had all that killing power with you at all times (you're in some sort of military, I hope... dear Lord I hope so), but if it's really necessary that you did, I'd be more afraid of WHY I need all those guns than of the guns themselves. I can't imagine wanting troops that are more afraid of their own weapons than they are of the enemy. I HAVE a healthy fear of guns, but a healthy fear of guns is not thinking they're going to kill you at any time. A healthy fear of guns is treating them like they're loaded unless you've checked yourself, and being responsible with them when they are loaded.

    All the guns in the house WERE kept in a safe, but they were still in the house. My old man supervised me and let me shoot whenever I wanted, and he took that time to teach me how to safely use weapons as well as how to use them properly.

    I'm not really sure of what you're getting at by differentiating between owning lots of guns or just one gun. I don't see the growth of danger with the growth of the number of guns (# of guns increases steadily in the U.S. every year, whil crime rate fluctuates) I can't hunt deer and pheasant with the same gun, and I need a completely different gun to have fun and shoot rapidly at targets. I like having that option.

    Yes, guns are a way of killing people. Some people use them for that. I don't think I could ever use them for that. I think I'd have a hard time even pointing a gun at another person (my dad tought me well). I like the Kantian philosophy of letting yourself die before killing your attacker (no guarantee that I'd follow it at game time, though), so my guns are truely for hobby/sport. I don't belittle your hobbies, don' belittle mine.
     
  12. globetrotter

    globetrotter Senior member

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    "I'm not sure why you had all that killing power with you at all times (you're in some sort of military, I hope... dear Lord I hope so)"
    yes, at the time I was in the military.

    "I HAVE a healthy fear of guns, but a healthy fear of guns is not thinking they're going to kill you at any time. A healthy fear of guns is treating them like they're loaded unless you've checked yourself, and being responsible with them when they are loaded."

    you are probrably right. this is a discussion that I have with my self a lot, I recognize that alot of people are raised with guns in their house, my father was, I wasn't. I also find that most sportsmen have less fear or respect of firearms than I am comfortable with. for some reason, a hell of alot of people are killed by mistake, and many of them have used guns their whole lives.

    "My old man supervised me and let me shoot whenever I wanted, and he took that time to teach me how to safely use weapons as well as how to use them properly."

    I am honstly torn as to how to do that. some of my friends have tought their kids to be around guns, I am not sure if I trust that.

    "I'm not really sure of what you're getting at by differentiating between owning lots of guns or just one gun."

    sorry, this is my own hang up. It always rubs me when I hear people misplacing guns or losing guns, and I don't like the thought of collecting weapons. again, sorry, this is my own hang up. my feeling is, if you need a gun for protection, get the best one you can afford. if you need a gun for deer, ditto, for turkey ditto. I find it a little distribing to see a collection of weapons. for me, weapons are something that are used because they have to be, not because of any other reason, and if you can avoid them, I would do so.


    " I think I'd have a hard time even pointing a gun at another person (my dad tought me well)."
    yes, I would like to think that I could teach my son that well.

    "I don't belittle your hobbies, don' belittle mine. "

    I appologize, espectially in the position of a newbie here. for me, guns are about killing people. I have nothing against hunting, not at all. but I have seen too many people killed or maimed by guns to think of a gun as a hobby. but to each his own.
     

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