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Are these Church's corrected grain?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by thebigcicero, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    As it happens, I've recently picked up a pair of Church's in polished binder (Balmoral) as well. Will be interesting to see how they wear in the next few months, but they do fit very well.

    Good luck! I imagine they'll be great.
     
  2. Marcus Brody

    Marcus Brody Well-Known Member

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    They aren't from the new line, but for what it's worth, I really like the Church's that I have.
     
  3. Tidybeard

    Tidybeard Well-Known Member

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    The shoes in the first post don't look like polished binder to me - if you open the first pic they're not shiny enough. Looks like calf and I like the design.
     
  4. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    What is the purpose of the linen lining? Why would they use this instead of leather?

    I really like the BB patent leather laceups by Churchs, but I noticed these were linen lines as well. Should this be a concern for a pair of shoes I might wear 2x year?

    I like the sandlewood binder on the shannon and grafton actually fwiw.


    It seems there are different stories on the linen/canvas lining. Some optimists say that it's desirable because the shoe is lighter and cooler, particularly good for moderate weather. The cynics (or realists, perhaps) say that it's cheaper to make than a full leather lining, which is probably true, so it's a cost-cutting measure by Church's.

    I'm not sure which one is "higher quality", as in longer durability. I've read that the linen can wear through quicker, thus wearing the outer leather. However, I've also read that good quality linen will last a long time.

    Being relatively new to the study of shoes, I can't offer an expert opinion. However, from my research it seems that Church's offers high quality on "shortcuts"; for example, that their polished binder uses very good leather (even though it's corrected) and the linen durability is good (despite the fact it's not full leather lining). The only issue is how much you want to spend, but as Leatherman posted, it's not just cost but fit that counts too.

    Any more expert opinions out there?
     
  5. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    They aren't from the new line, but for what it's worth, I really like the Church's that I have.

    Well, you'll notice this model is called "Paris", which I couldn't find anywhere else. I asked the Church's store (in NYC) about this and they say it's from a brand new line, called the City Line, released "this year." He went on to say that they're on a brand new last, too. so though they look similar to an existing shoe (can't remember the model), they're slightly different and seemingly a bit sleeker.

    I'd be curious if anyone else knows about a new line.
     
  6. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    The shoes in the first post don't look like polished binder to me - if you open the first pic they're not shiny enough. Looks like calf and I like the design.

    I like the design too. They're definitely polished binder (they come with a leaflet in that box that verifies that), but I was also surprised that they look like a nice calf because the don't have excessive shine. It seems that there are different calibers of polished binder, and these seem to be of the higher caliber.
     
  7. Macallan

    Macallan Well-Known Member

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    Being relatively new to the study of shoes, I can't offer an expert opinion. However, from my research it seems that Church's offers high quality on "shortcuts"; for example, that their polished binder uses very good leather (even though it's corrected) and the linen durability is good (despite the fact it's not full leather lining).

    Herring Shoes sell the Consul for £335 in black calf and polished binder - is this really a shortcut by Church's? Although I prefer their calf leather, polished binder is easy to polish.
    Interesting people do not mention corrected grain when discussing patent leather shoes.

    Personally, I think the criticisms are more about the parent company than the shoes. Had Prada never got involved, I suspect they would be more adored.
     
  8. rebel222

    rebel222 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting people do not mention corrected grain when discussing patent leather shoes.



    That's because they're not the same.
     
  9. Macallan

    Macallan Well-Known Member

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    Corrected grain leather can be used for patent leather shoes.
     
  10. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    Herring Shoes sell the Consul for £335 in black calf and polished binder - is this really a shortcut by Church's?

    Well, I think the issue is that black calf is not corrected, whereas polished binder is corrected (at least, that's what I understand about Church's). The shortcut is not the time to prepare the leather but rather the fact that it's cheaper to use corrected grain. Although frankly their polished binder leather looks pretty good. I was comparing it to some other similar shoes, and whereas others look plasticky, these look like... well... polished black calf.
     
  11. Macallan

    Macallan Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think the issue is that black calf is not corrected, whereas polished binder is corrected (at least, that's what I understand about Church's). The shortcut is not the time to prepare the leather but rather the fact that it's cheaper to use corrected grain. Although frankly their polished binder leather looks pretty good. I was comparing it to some other similar shoes, and whereas others look plasticky, these look like... well... polished black calf.

    The point I was making is that Church's give people a choice and there is no price difference. If people do not like polished binder, they can get calf for the same price.

    If Church's starting offering certain shoes only available in polished binder then I can understand concerns.
     
  12. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    The point I was making is that Church's give people a choice and there is no price difference. If people do not like polished binder, they can get calf for the same price.

    If Church's starting offering certain shoes only available in polished binder then I can understand concerns.


    That's actually a really good point. And I'm one of those that happen to prefer the polished binder! [​IMG]
     
  13. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Well-Known Member

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    Well, you'll notice this model is called "Paris", which I couldn't find anywhere else. I asked the Church's store (in NYC) about this and they say it's from a brand new line, called the City Line, released "this year." .

    City line look cheap inside shoe.
    Are they same price as normal Church?
    Me love Church but me never by City line,
     
  14. BonesDT

    BonesDT New Member

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    Are you sure those Church's City Line Paris shoes are "Polished Binder"? Church's website shows all the City Line shoes come in the sole "Capital Black" color. From the website pictures, the Capital Black shine looks in between the "Box Calf Black" and the "Polished Binder Black". Can someone confirm the Capital Black is Corrected Grain as well?

    Thanks to this site, I'm schooling myself on the long term effects of Corrected Grain vs non-CG with diligent shining. Is it possible to shine the Box Calf over time to be as shiny as CG?
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2011
  15. Aqualung

    Aqualung Well-Known Member

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    The point I was making is that Church's give people a choice and there is no price difference. If people do not like polished binder, they can get calf for the same price.

    If Church's starting offering certain shoes only available in polished binder then I can understand concerns.



    Bookbinder is simply a term for the finish. All Church shoes are made from full grain calf even the suede where the part near the animal's body is on the outside.. That is not "corrected" grain. Bookbinder is simply a finish that takes a higher shine and keeps it longer. Since I don't like a high shine, in my Churches with this finish I just use paste occasionally (never wax) to get a low shine look. In fact, just brushing them is really enough for these shoes or perhaps the twice yearly moisturising (that's enough for most shoes anyway)
     
  16. NotoriousMarquis

    NotoriousMarquis Well-Known Member

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    Are you sure this is true? Can someone speak to this?
     
  17. HoratioNelson

    HoratioNelson Active Member

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    Apologies for bringing up an old thread, but I purchased some of the City line shoes about 18 months ago (from Royal Exchange store in London) and it’s been interesting seeing how they’ve fared in this period.

    In summary, I wouldn’t purchase them again because (i) they’re not a bargain, (ii) they haven’t worn so well and (iii) there are better shoes at a similar price point. They’re not all bad though.

    I’ve attached some pics to show how they’ve worn in this time (note they only came back from resoling/restoration from Church’s a couple of months ago). They are a bit manky and misshaped, but not overly so.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The linen half lining was a particular issue for me in the first month or two, not because of any particular deficit in quality, but where the shoe naturally creases along the bottom of the toes (and mine seemed to crease quite a bit – as you can see in the pics, there are in fact two creases, one horizontal along the toe line and one diagonal further down), the creases were very painful to begin with. Toes rubbing against an inwards crease/fold of linen or canvas is much more discomforting than against mere leather (which I don’t think would crease in the same way anyway). After a few months though, everything softened up above the toes and although the creases on the surface remain, it’s not something I feel when walking. In fact, the shoes are now exceptionally comfortable, and while I think this is the case with most pairs of shoes which have been worn in, these are particularly comfortable.

    As to how they have worn, the creases have been depicted and discussed above, but more recently (and what drove me to search for this thread), there is quite a bit of cracking and in one point (see close-up image), there is what I would describe as a crevice – perhaps a symptom of these shoes being corrected leather. It feels like I could open up the crevice and peel part of the top layer away. They’ve been treated with the correct brushing, polishing care etc and even shoe trees haven’t done much to save them (though I admit, because I now have a number of other shoes I prefer, these have been relegated to the occasional deprivation of shoe trees).

    I mentioned that these have already been into Church’s to be resold. They couldn’t do much about the creases (and I’m not sure the severe cracking had begun when I took them in), but they did at least revive the linen to a white colour (i.e. give it a good steam clean). Apparently I’ve still got another 2 resoles left, but I don’t imagine they’ll last until then. While I may also put down the slightly excessive wear to the fact I sometimes spend 18-24 hours in the office wearing them continually, and have a propensity to walk a mile and back to grab lunch every now and again in the City, these shoes don’t have the innate durability or quality of my other shoes.

    So if anyone were considering buying a pair of these, I don’t think it would be a disaster (especially if they could be purchased at a sale price – I know branches in London were recently doing 20-30% off certain City line shoes), but I think either the linen lining and/or quality of leather makes it difficult for the shoes to hold their shape properly.
     
  18. Joker Man

    Joker Man Well-Known Member

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    I think the expert just did and I'd have to concur after wearing Churches for 40 years

    And btw, I have never seen so many crappy looking shoes either my own or what the other men wear as I've seen on here.
    Do you all buy 2nds or defective shoes in the wrong size? Never seen this junk in real life. Strange.
     
  19. NotoriousMarquis

    NotoriousMarquis Well-Known Member

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    Seconds doesn't mean the shoe is crappy, it means it has a minor defect that ultimately won't spoil the look of the shoe in the long run. I have CG church's on the city line, and they're actually fully lined in leather, but they're also chelseas and probably a bit more expensive. I've worn them maybe 7 times but have loved them over the past year or so, and have really taken good care of them. No sign of aging, but again, I've worn them under 10 times.
     
  20. Joker Man

    Joker Man Well-Known Member

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    Stop deluding yourself. 2nds are 2nds for more than some minor blemish that can easily be corrected in finishing. The shoes may have accidently been made on the wrong last, or someone forgot to put the cork in and the inspector could feel it wasn't there,or the linings were put on wrong or a 100 other things. I didn't even know that AE or church sold 2nds until recently and just assumed that like a lot of businesses tey just disposed of their defectively made shoes or gave them to the poor through some charity.
    When you buy any sort of 2nd it's like buying a different brand because only the top stuff is really representativeof their product. It's like buying the 2nd or 3rd bottled wines at Lafite, they are not the top wine that the estate's name goes on.
    Buy used shoes is even worse. All you're buying is an old piece of leather that was once a certain brand of shoe. It's like going to a junkyand and buying a Rolls Royce. It's just an old piece of metal at this point.
     

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