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Are these Church's corrected grain?

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by thebigcicero, Feb 6, 2010.

  1. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

    Messages:
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    Feb 4, 2010
    I just bought my first pair of Church's, a really nice looking polished binder shoe from a new line called the City line. Sleek looking design, apparently on a brand new last. HOWEVER, I'm getting paranoid from all the posts here that Church's uses cheap leather. I get the suspicion that some people aren't sure if polished binder actually is corrected grain or not and what that means for the quality.

    So......
    (1) Is this good quality or low quality leather?
    (2) Are they corrected grain?

    Thank you!
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Macallan

    Macallan Senior member

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    Location:
    London
    Polished binder is corrected grain.

    I have a pair of Church's (in polished binder) from the pre-Prada era that I still wear and several since the Prada takeover (in what Church's would call calf); although I consider them on par with Crockett & Jones, I favour Church's.

    I do not have anything from the City Line, what is the RRP?
     
  3. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

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    Polished binder is corrected grain.

    I have a pair of Church's (in polished binder) from the pre-Prada era that I still wear and several since the Prada takeover (in what Church's would call calf); although I consider them on par with Crockett & Jones, I favour Church's.

    I do not have anything from the City Line, what is the RRP?


    Thanks! I'm just so paranoid since a lot of people have been dinging on Church's here. I think the new shoes, including this City Line (my model is called "Paris"), are quite stylish looking, in contrast to many complaints about Church's being too stodgy - they look like a good competitor to the C&Js. Actually, I tried on some C&Js with the intention of ordering some from PLal, but they didn't fit - the Church's had a slightly wider last that made them more comfortable.

    Sorry, I'm not sure what RRP is, but if you mean price, they were $450 at the Church's store on Madison Ave in NYC. I'm struggling with the price if the leather is low quality, AND they are only 1/2 leather lined (the other 1/2 is linen). But they look gorgeous in person.
     
  4. rebel222

    rebel222 Senior member

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    Louisiana
    Thanks! I'm just so paranoid since a lot of people have been dinging on Church's here. I think the new shoes, including this City Line (my model is called "Paris"), are quite stylish looking, in contrast to many complaints about Church's being too stodgy - they look like a good competitor to the C&Js. Actually, I tried on some C&Js with the intention of ordering some from PLal, but they didn't fit - the Church's had a slightly wider last that made them more comfortable.

    Sorry, I'm not sure what RRP is, but if you mean price, they were $450 at the Church's store on Madison Ave in NYC. I'm struggling with the price if the leather is low quality, AND they are only 1/2 leather lined (the other 1/2 is linen). But they look gorgeous in person.


    Sounds like you are trying to get people to justify your purchase by recanting previous statements against Church's styling/quality. That's probably not going to happen around here. They are decent, but you can get better quality for you money. Also, they are corrected grain, which most do not like the appearance of.
     
  5. entrero

    entrero Senior member

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    You've been scammed dude, get your money back
     
  6. Macallan

    Macallan Senior member

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    Church's are good at making good quality conservative shoes and that is what the company is about, Lobb is the same in the bespoke department. If you want fancy designs then look elsewhere, if you are not a customer of the two firms.

    As for price, they probably cost more in the US then in the UK; Church's do cost slightly more than C&J and I think both should be priced equally. Basing opinion only on price is tricky, Meyer & Mortimer are about £500 cheaper than Dege & Skinner for a two-piece suit, both have a military cut but if you preferred Dege would you go to Meyer?

    The opinion that Church's is overprice is flawed.
    - Lodger sell Alfred Sargent shoes for £550, Church's Royal Collection is £430.
    - Is the quality different between Church's normal range and Edward Green worth over £200
    - How about the quality difference between the Royal Range at £430 and G&G at £565; besides more design options G&G are not worth £135.
    Even the points above are flawed, but it shows how it is difficult to compare.

    We have different styles, I am looking 4 new work shoes and would ideally want, all shoes with a round toe last, in black calfskin: cap-toe, punched-toe, semi-brogue with medallion and full-brogue with medallion. Church's have this in their Royal Collection, although I would prefer a more tradition toe.
    Someone else may go for oxfords, derbys and maybe even loafers, in different shades of brown and red in a chisel-toe.

    Church's make their shoes so they can be resoled three times; use shoe-trees, polish and treat the shoes as required and they should last three resoles. I went to Church's a few years ago and was talking shoe rotation with the assistant, he said an older gent recently has his 10 year Church's resoled with some repair and they also had a women bring her husband's 6-month old Church's. Take care of your Church's and they will last a long time.
     
  7. pebblegrain

    pebblegrain Senior member

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    really, there are better and worse grades of CG, the Church's are on the better end.

    on the other hand they are still overpriced.
     
  8. meister

    meister Senior member

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    Church's are good at making good quality conservative shoes and that is what the company is about, Lobb is the same in the bespoke department. If you want fancy designs then look elsewhere, if you are not a customer of the two firms.

    As for price, they probably cost more in the US then in the UK; Church's do cost slightly more than C&J and I think both should be priced equally. Basing opinion only on price is tricky, Meyer & Mortimer are about £500 cheaper than Dege & Skinner for a two-piece suit, both have a military cut but if you preferred Dege would you go to Meyer?

    The opinion that Church's is overprice is flawed.
    - Lodger sell Alfred Sargent shoes for £550, Church's Royal Collection is £430.
    - Is the quality different between Church's normal range and Edward Green worth over £200
    - How about the quality difference between the Royal Range at £430 and G&G at £565; besides more design options G&G are not worth £135.
    Even the points above are flawed, but it shows how it is difficult to compare.

    We have different styles, I am looking 4 new work shoes and would ideally want, all shoes with a round toe last, in black calfskin: cap-toe, punched-toe, semi-brogue with medallion and full-brogue with medallion. Church's have this in their Royal Collection, although I would prefer a more tradition toe.
    Someone else may go for oxfords, derbys and maybe even loafers, in different shades of brown and red in a chisel-toe.

    Church's make their shoes so they can be resoled three times; use shoe-trees, polish and treat the shoes as required and they should last three resoles. I went to Church's a few years ago and was talking shoe rotation with the assistant, he said an older gent recently has his 10 year Church's resoled with some repair and they also had a women bring her husband's 6-month old Church's. Take care of your Church's and they will last a long time.


    There's a lot in what you say. I have a pair of Churchs vintage for Alan Macafee and the leather is superb. Even binder in Churchs is pretty good and very popular. Not for me - I hate CG and won't wear it but there is a lot of bagging of Churchs that is not reasonable IMHO.
     
  9. srivats

    srivats Senior member

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    3,907
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    Polished binder is a higher quality CG from what I understand ... Vox has a pair that he has posted many rimes:

    [​IMG]

    Church's Shannons, purchased new in 1986.

    Still on the original double sole.


    That said, for $450 you can get alden shell cordovan in black color. Those would be a much better investment.
     
  10. archetypal_yuppie

    archetypal_yuppie Senior member

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    That said, for $450 you can get alden shell cordovan in black color. Those would be a much better investment.

    That is subjective.
     
  11. srivats

    srivats Senior member

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    That is subjective.

    Why do you think it is subjective? Shell aldens are built really well (eg full leather lining) and even a simple caring regimen ensures that shell lasts a long time. These are black shoes anyway, so unless someone hates shell cordovan and hates alden's conservative styling, why is it *not* a better choice than polished binder?
     
  12. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Senior member

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    Middle picture look cheap,
    nasty canvass lining,
    me think they cut corners in new line
     
  13. Son Of Saphir

    Son Of Saphir Senior member

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    really, there are better and worse grades of CG, the Church's are on the better end.

    yes some shoe have plastik finish, bad
    some grind down and paint put on, it better.
    Church have both type
     
  14. archetypal_yuppie

    archetypal_yuppie Senior member

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    Why do you think it is subjective? Shell aldens are built really well (eg full leather lining) and even a simple caring regimen ensures that shell lasts a long time. These are black shoes anyway, so unless someone hates shell cordovan and hates alden's conservative styling, why is it *not* a better choice than polished binder?

    Because price isn't the only factor. Cordovan is different from calf, and someone may prefer one to the other. Therefore, whether or not it is a better choice depends on the user. The "unless" you use now was not included in the comment I first replied to.
     
  15. srivats

    srivats Senior member

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    I don't know anyone here who'd prefer polished binder instead of cordovan, except maybe Vox.

    Full grain calfskin is a different matter altogether.
     
  16. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

    Messages:
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    Feb 4, 2010
    Church's are good at making good quality conservative shoes and that is what the company is about, Lobb is the same in the bespoke department. If you want fancy designs then look elsewhere, if you are not a customer of the two firms.

    As for price, they probably cost more in the US then in the UK; Church's do cost slightly more than C&J and I think both should be priced equally. Basing opinion only on price is tricky, Meyer & Mortimer are about £500 cheaper than Dege & Skinner for a two-piece suit, both have a military cut but if you preferred Dege would you go to Meyer?

    The opinion that Church's is overprice is flawed.
    - Lodger sell Alfred Sargent shoes for £550, Church's Royal Collection is £430.
    - Is the quality different between Church's normal range and Edward Green worth over £200
    - How about the quality difference between the Royal Range at £430 and G&G at £565; besides more design options G&G are not worth £135.
    Even the points above are flawed, but it shows how it is difficult to compare.

    We have different styles, I am looking 4 new work shoes and would ideally want, all shoes with a round toe last, in black calfskin: cap-toe, punched-toe, semi-brogue with medallion and full-brogue with medallion. Church's have this in their Royal Collection, although I would prefer a more tradition toe.
    Someone else may go for oxfords, derbys and maybe even loafers, in different shades of brown and red in a chisel-toe.

    Church's make their shoes so they can be resoled three times; use shoe-trees, polish and treat the shoes as required and they should last three resoles. I went to Church's a few years ago and was talking shoe rotation with the assistant, he said an older gent recently has his 10 year Church's resoled with some repair and they also had a women bring her husband's 6-month old Church's. Take care of your Church's and they will last a long time.



    Thanks for the nice analysis!

    I'm surprised to find how tricky it really is to put a value on shoes. What made it complicated for me was that I wanted a good quality shoe but also something that looked modern but not too modern, something afforded by this new design. Unfortunately the C&Js, with modern design and offered cheaply by PLal, didn't fit my foot, so with the clear winner in low price unavailable I had to use "likability" to choose other shoes. The comparable Alden shoe looked a little too traditional for my goal. After I bought the Church's I found some Allen Edmonds that were quite nice (new model called Rawlins... http://www.allenedmonds.com/aeonline...ategory=120552 ). They look similar, have full leather lining, nice looking leather, and they're $150 cheaper than the Church's... but they don't look quite as nice and sleek as the Church's!

    It's tricky to figure out if "looking nice" is worth an extra $150, when the Church's look like they won't last as long as the AE! I personally have a hard time overriding my value-conscious logical brain because of styling... but these particular Church's look good on my foot. [​IMG] Unless there are some other semi-modern-looking shoes that I'm missing...
     
  17. Leather man

    Leather man Senior member

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    Hey, if you like the shoes and they fit well you've bought well too. Years ago a seasoned shoe salesperson told me that fit if far more important than price. I was umming and aaaring over a pair of Church's vs a pair of C&Js . Like you the C&Js didn't fit as well because they were too narrow for me but I couldn't get past the fact the Church's cost more.

    It was good advice and I've been a fan of Church's ever since. They're good quality and they will last you as long as any other good quality shoe out there - moreover you like the look so you'll feel good about wearing them for years to come.

    Even linen linings have been the subject of debate here - most thing full leather is better but a couple of shoemakers have written in over the years to question that and remind us all that linen vamp linings were the material of choice for many years. Good quality linen will last many years.

    Congratulations on a handsome pair of shoes!
     
  18. karlconnolly

    karlconnolly New Member

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    Jan 13, 2010
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    As it happens, I've recently picked up a pair of Church's in polished binder (Balmoral) as well. Will be interesting to see how they wear in the next few months, but they do fit very well.
     
  19. txeconomist

    txeconomist Senior member

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    Feb 11, 2008
    What is the purpose of the linen lining? Why would they use this instead of leather?

    I really like the BB patent leather laceups by Churchs, but I noticed these were linen lines as well. Should this be a concern for a pair of shoes I might wear 2x year?

    I like the sandlewood binder on the shannon and grafton actually fwiw.
     
  20. thebigcicero

    thebigcicero Member

    Messages:
    17
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    Feb 4, 2010
    Hey, if you like the shoes and they fit well you've bought well too. Years ago a seasoned shoe salesperson told me that fit if far more important than price. I was umming and aaaring over a pair of Church's vs a pair of C&Js . Like you the C&Js didn't fit as well because they were too narrow for me but I couldn't get past the fact the Church's cost more.

    It was good advice and I've been a fan of Church's ever since. They're good quality and they will last you as long as any other good quality shoe out there - moreover you like the look so you'll feel good about wearing them for years to come.

    Even linen linings have been the subject of debate here - most thing full leather is better but a couple of shoemakers have written in over the years to question that and remind us all that linen vamp linings were the material of choice for many years. Good quality linen will last many years.

    Congratulations on a handsome pair of shoes!


    Thanks! You know, I'm not one to get paralysis by analysis... and yet that's happening to me here. What you wrote here snapped me out of that. After all, you're right, it's the fit at the end of the day....
     

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