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Apple Overtakes Microsoft in Market Value

Discussion in 'Fine Living, Home, Design & Auto' started by Artisan Fan, May 26, 2010.

  1. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    Well to be fair, I do like Bing and I practically live in Office 2007 14 hours a day. I have heard Windows 7 is very good as well. One wonders how good it would be without Apple and Google as competition.

    Also, while I often disagree with him on some issues, Gates seems to be a genuine philanthropist trying to make a difference.
     
  2. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Jobs will be the reason Apple tanks. His obsession with closed architecture in an open-source world will eventually undo him as Google firsts beats Apple in mobile software, then in cloud computing.

    Hmm, I wonder. Could it be Apple's closed systems also have a beneficial effect in easing service for Apple's customers and limiting Apple's expenses in that area? I think so.

    But I generally like open systems, all else being equal.
     
  3. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the history of computing, the somewhat open systems we have now are anomalous. All successful systems in the past have been closed, and as Apple's showing, you can be wildly successful today with a closed system.

    Open systems are overrated, unreliable, and their costs are often vastly underestimated. Commercially, no open system has yet succeeded.

    --Andre
     
  4. haganah

    haganah Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Jobs will be the reason Apple tanks. His obsession with closed architecture in an open-source world will eventually undo him as Google firsts beats Apple in mobile software, then in cloud computing. BTW the FTC is considering investigating Apple for uncompetitive practises. Visions of things to come.
    Is this a joke? You praise Google and then mention uncompetitive practices? Seriously? You realize they were just investigated over admob and apple saved them right? And this: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/te...gy/23goog.html Yeah...visions of things to come alright.
     
  5. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    An O/S, Office, and a large email system. The 2 former dominate corporations globally and will rarely change regardless of how many other options are thrown their way.
    +1 They've been making serious inroads in the database market too. Oracle and IBM are still tops, but they had a big head-start and MS has made impressive progress in that market.
    If you look at the history of computing, the somewhat open systems we have now are anomalous. All successful systems in the past have been closed, and as Apple's showing, you can be wildly successful today with a closed system. Open systems are overrated, unreliable, and their costs are often vastly underestimated. Commercially, no open system has yet succeeded. --Andre
    a huge +1 Initial costs are usually lower, but for on-going costs they are frequently higher. People forget that cost doesn't just include licensing, but also the salaries of the people you need to maintain the system and the cost of a service going down. These open-source systems rarely have support ecosystems similar to the ones Cisco and Microsoft provide, and a big concern is being able to find the expertise to manage your systems. Cisco and MS both have that covered a lot better that most open-source options, and that's a huge advantage for them. The geeks that go on and on about open-source are rarely the same people that administer enterprise or even medium-sized networks. i've used open-source products in production, but for a very specific need. I purchased a support contract but the level of service wasn't anywhere near what I got from Cisco or MS. When I encountered a couple bugs i found in the system, nobody was really able to help me and I had to find my own solutions as a workaround. I'd personally be very hesitant to go that route again. A little off-topic, but MS is really hitting on all cylinders lately. Server 2008 is a really outstanding product. The lengths to which they have gone to make getting better and more information out of the system, for compliance or reporting purposes is pretty impressive. The whole product is extremely refined. It also has way better security and you can even install the OS as a stripped-down command-line version of windows called Server Core. MS estimates that 80% of their patches revolve around UI aspects, so running server core really increases stability and decreases the attack surface for vulnerabilities. Of course, you can use the gui tools on other servers to remotely administer server core machines if you don't want to use the command line. It's all pretty neat.
     
  6. Tokyo Slim

    Tokyo Slim Well-Known Member

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    Unlikely

    History disagrees. How much panic happened when he was sick last year?
     
  7. binge

    binge Well-Known Member

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    Commercially, no open system has yet succeeded.

    Except for the personal computer. They have sold a few of those.
     
  8. Jumbie

    Jumbie Well-Known Member

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    Except for the personal computer. They have sold a few of those.

    Yeah, I had a huge WTF is he talking about moment when I read it but then I figured if someone could make a statement like that it wasn't worth discussing.
     
  9. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    Except for the personal computer. They have sold a few of those.

    The one where people had to reverse-engineer the BIOS, and run at least 3 different proprietary OSes on the path to success?

    --Andre
     
  10. holymadness

    holymadness Well-Known Member

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    Is this a joke? You praise Google and then mention uncompetitive practices? Seriously? You realize they were just investigated over admob and apple saved them right? And this: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/23/te...gy/23goog.html Yeah...visions of things to come alright.
    You are conflating the two without really explaining the underlying differences. Europe has always been less tolerant of monolithic companies than the USA. You could see evidence of this as recently as early this year when Microsoft was fined enormous amounts of money and forced to offer a choice of several web browsers with each Windows installation sold in the EU. The investigation into Google by Brussels is a reaction to its overwhelming dominance in web search and consequently advertising. This is different from the investigation into Apple's business practices, which are anticompetitive not in the sense that Apple was the best at what it does and therefore dominates the market. Instead, Apple has been threatening its business partners that it will drop them from its e-retail marketplace if they do business with Amazon or other Apple competitors. That's straight-up gangster blackmail. It goes hand-in-hand with Steve Jobs' bullying, sue-anyone-who-gets-in-my way attitude to business. Soon it will bite him in the ass.
    If you look at the history of computing, the somewhat open systems we have now are anomalous. All successful systems in the past have been closed, and as Apple's showing, you can be wildly successful today with a closed system. Open systems are overrated, unreliable, and their costs are often vastly underestimated. Commercially, no open system has yet succeeded. --Andre
    blah blah
    Before this becomes a nerd fest of jargony semantics, I want to clarify what I mean by an open system. Apple has created an architecture for its ipod/iphone/ipad devices that has been deliberately crippled in order to prevent the owner from using it in any way other than intended. Flash, a massive percentage of online content, is disallowed. Thus this content must be replaced by apps (where it cannot be replaced by h264 video), many of which cost money. But the app store is a venue where not only are developers forced to use the toolkits Apple provides (i.e. 3rd party compilers are banned), but they must undergo an arbitrary selection process to be 'approved' before sale. The rules, so far as they've been made explicit, are no porn, no disparagement of public figures (including political cartoons and commentary), and various other forms of censorship are starting to be felt as even fashion magazines modify their content for the ipad versions of their publications. Users cannot multitask (maybe in v.4), not because the devices can't handle it, but because Jobs doesn't think the customer has a right to use his machine the way he wants. The music downloaded from iTunes and the books from iBook are in proprietary formats and loaded with DRM. Users can't even modify the wallpaper (again, maybe v.4). Finally, iphone users are stuck using AT&T, one of the shittiest networks in America (might change this June). This is, in fact, the most closed system that has ever existed in computing or commerce. It may "just work" but that's because you're limited to one kind of experience: the one Apple allows you to have, ostensibly because it's in your best interest. The iDevices are the gated community suburb of the technology world, where paid apps censored by committee replace the content produced every day for free online; where the sometimes chaotic customizability and flexibility of the modern OS is sacrificed for a bland but stable experience; where content is delivered through only one channel, tethering the buyer to Apple for the life of his device, and cannot be shared. There is no way this business model will succeed against the proliferation of competing platforms (for example, Android) on a bevy of different devices, each customized or customizable for the end user. HTC's gorgeous and innovative custom UIs have already shown what can be overlaid onto a highly malleable system. Already 100,000 Android phones are being sold every day; far more than iPhones. As tablets become the next big thing, we will see the distance grow even more significant between the two platforms. Apple had a great run while the competition was sleeping and no one provided a legitimate competitor to the iphone. In the end, though, Jobs' iron grip will be the reason Apple sales dwindle as more creative products take first place.
     
  11. A Y

    A Y Well-Known Member

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    Instead, Apple has been threatening its business partners that it will drop them from its e-retail marketplace if they do business with Amazon or other Apple competitors. That's straight-up gangster blackmail. It goes hand-in-hand with Steve Jobs' bullying, sue-anyone-who-gets-in-my way attitude to business. Soon it will bite him in the ass.

    Perhaps they were taking a page from the Amazon playbook:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/te.../18amazon.html

    Besides ARM and maybe a couple of auto suppliers, I wonder if there are any other EU technology companies of consequence. The Nordic cell phone companies seem to be having their lunch eaten by some young American upstart. I wonder why that is.

    I see ranting, and some predictions of the future, but you haven't clarified what an open system means.

    --Andre
     
  12. Artisan Fan

    Artisan Fan Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the history of computing, the somewhat open systems we have now are anomalous. All successful systems in the past have been closed, and as Apple's showing, you can be wildly successful today with a closed system.

    Open systems are overrated, unreliable, and their costs are often vastly underestimated. Commercially, no open system has yet succeeded.

    --Andre


    Well said.
     
  13. Eason

    Eason Well-Known Member

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  14. milosh

    milosh Well-Known Member

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  15. holymadness

    holymadness Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps they were taking a page from the Amazon playbook:



    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/18/te.../18amazon.html

    I never claimed otherwise. However, since Amazon does this to maintain its loss-leading $9.99 bestseller sales strategy, I can hardly complain as a customer, especially when Apple is charging $14.99 a book. [​IMG]
    Laziness. When they get desperate enough, they will begin to innovate again, or else go the way of Palm. Already Nokia is forging business deals with Yahoo in attempts to stay relevant.


    I see it as a philosophical approach to usability rather than as a technical specification.
     
  16. haganah

    haganah Well-Known Member

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    You are conflating the two without really explaining the underlying differences. Europe has always been less tolerant of monolithic companies than the USA. You could see evidence of this as recently as early this year when Microsoft was fined enormous amounts of money and forced to offer a choice of several web browsers with each Windows installation sold in the EU. The investigation into Google by Brussels is a reaction to its overwhelming dominance in web search and consequently advertising. This is different from the investigation into Apple's business practices, which are anticompetitive not in the sense that Apple was the best at what it does and therefore dominates the market. Instead, Apple has been threatening its business partners that it will drop them from its e-retail marketplace if they do business with Amazon or other Apple competitors. That's straight-up gangster blackmail. It goes hand-in-hand with Steve Jobs' bullying, sue-anyone-who-gets-in-my way attitude to business. Soon it will bite him in the ass.
    Google was investigated in the US. You brought up the EU. Has the US investigated Apple yet because of Amazon? You claim it is representative of what's to come. Then you claim that Apple will threaten its business partners for doing business with Amazon and that's "straight up gangster blackmail". This is a complete twisting of what occured there. And when confronted over Amazon's pricing and "unfair" trade practices you admit to being OK with them - when just earlier you were against this sort of behavior. I'm sorry but you shouldn't allow your irrational dislike for a company to cloud your judgement so much.
     
  17. otc

    otc Well-Known Member

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    Hmm, I wonder. Could it be Apple's closed systems also have a beneficial effect in easing service for Apple's customers and limiting Apple's expenses in that area? I think so. But I generally like open systems, all else being equal.
    Apple is an odd duck in regards to open vs closed systems. Their initial revival relied heavily on the success of OSX which is based on BSD. Their code itself is not very open (which is acceptable under the BSD license) but the system was very open. Being able to get a *nix terminal or run native X11 software gave so much control over the system that wasn't possible without hacking windows apart. Then you get to the iphone (and relatives) and you have a similar kernel base but ZERO access to it. Development is restricted, access is restricted, installations are restricted--apple has to specifically approve everything you do with your [non-hacked] device. The iphone won because it was an amazing piece of technology that wiped the floor with everything that exsited at the time despite its obvious shortcomings (and it did so while being affordable and stylish). They got a huge dev crowd because they were the first "sexy" market which gave a critical mass of paying customers and developers willing to jump through hoops. At some point though, they are becoming the microsoft of mobile devices...somebody like Google is going to upset them. Just like the tradeoff used to be ubiquitous windows with 50 [mostly junky] programs for everything vs apple with maybe 1-2 good programs but no other real options. It could easily become the iphone with 50 shitty fart programs vs the android phones that have 1 good fart program (and one good location overlay, and two good movie time apps, etc.). My apple shares accidentally sold when my 220 stop order kicked in in the big DOW dip...I was happy to buy them when they were at 95 but in light of what has been driving their share price recently, I took the proceeds elsewhere instead of buying back into AAPL. I no longer like the direction their business is heading. EDIT: How about this? Apple could go bankrupt tomorrow (or Jobs could fall off the face of the earth) and I think we would pretty much be ok. It would be sad that you couldn't buy new stuff, but your iphones would still work and macs now use the same replacement parts as other computers... If MS failed tomorrow, we would be *fucked* As much as I am not a fan of MS, I sit here with outlook connected to an exchange server, a few excel windows open, and a copy of IE installed for those times I am forced to use our IE only intranet. If we stopped being able to get those programs, we would be screwed.
     
  18. GQgeek

    GQgeek Well-Known Member

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    EDIT: How about this? Apple could go bankrupt tomorrow (or Jobs could fall off the face of the earth) and I think we would pretty much be ok. It would be sad that you couldn't buy new stuff, but your iphones would still work and macs now use the same replacement parts as other computers... If MS failed tomorrow, we would be *fucked* As much as I am not a fan of MS, I sit here with outlook connected to an exchange server, a few excel windows open, and a copy of IE installed for those times I am forced to use our IE only intranet. If we stopped being able to get those programs, we would be screwed.
    While Apple makes a couple neat toys. MS is at the foundation of a huge % of computer networks. In days past you may have been able to get away with taking shots at MS OSes, but as they exist today, they are seriously awesome on both the client and server side, but especially on the server side. I have been working with Server 2008 R2 recently and I absolutely love it. It's got to be one of the absolute best products MS has ever made.
     
  19. kwilkinson

    kwilkinson Well-Known Member

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    While Apple makes a couple neat toys. MS is at the foundation of a huge % of computer networks. In days past you may have been able to get away with taking shots at MS OSes, but as they exist today, they are seriously awesome on both the client and server side, but especially on the server side. I have been working with Server 2008 R2 recently and I absolutely love it. It's got to be one of the absolute best products MS has ever made.

    Have you ever worked on an AS/400/iSeries?
     

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