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Antonio Meccariello Shoes

saurabh

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I have seen the Vass Kaan in person and also tried it. I also own many Vass U and F Last shoes/boots . They are good and happy with the price i paid buying directly from Vass.
While welting wise Vass Kaan is better as its hand welted while EG Dovers which are GYW. But Uppers of my Edward Green Dovers are much better quality than Vass and EG also uses a thicker lining which makes a big difference to me.
They Feel more solid to wear, finishing of uppers is better, EG 606 last is more pleasant than F or U Last to my eye, and lastly fit is very good on my feet than Vass F or U Last.
Now price wise Vass Kaan is around 750-850 pounds i think i.e. $1020-$1156 approx and I purchased brand new EG Rosewood Dovers for approx $1000 at Leffot last year so at least for me price was very comparable.
I am more happy to spend my money on something which is iconic, fits me good, uses better quality uppers and has better overall finish and appeal to me while i do understand loyal fans of Vass will disagree and its purely a personal preference.
Only if AM fit was good, i would hands down go with AM Centurian solely coz of Uppers quality and finishing, thicker lining, thin waist, overall aesthetics etc.
 

dalevy

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Leffot had a sale last year for Dovers and Galway (Retail is $1470).
They had my size in EG Dovers Rosewood Country calf and got them at $1000.

Gotcha, even though it seems a bit hard to fairly say X is better than Y if X is much more than Y, at least I think comparisons should be made on full retail prices.
 

saurabh

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Gotcha, even though it seems a bit hard to fairly say X is better than Y if X is much more than Y, at least I think comparisons should be made on full retail prices.
I do understand your point regarding price as i said in my post above i got a good price and was giving my input on quality of uppers and other things as well.
There are sale events all the time at least twice in a year for EG like at Mr. Porter which gives a chance to grab them at a good price.
IMO, for me Fit is number one, then Uppers/aesthetics, brand image and lastly the welting method and its solely my personal preference.
You can't go wrong with Vass as well if thats what someone likes especially hand welting and if Vass fits better.
Also, sharing a post from @dieworkwear dieworkwear blog where he has compared some split toe shoes and has quoted the EG Dovers as "the crème de la crème".
http://dieworkwear.com/post/165811856084/splitting-the-difference
 
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clee1982

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Dover is versatile (both dressy and casual), if EG is the only shoe fits you well, then of course nothing else matter, but if AM fits you, then as far as I'm concerned you're getting a "better" shoe all around (upper/finishing, tighter heel/waist, basically everything)
 

ThunderMarch

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Flurry of responses.

First of all, no offense meant to anyone.

Well, after reading through the posts, to be honest, apart from a few vague references to "upper quality", I really don't see a single specific thing that quantifies Dovers as "better quality".

I quote
"Whilst it’s important to recognise the craft that goes into making things, there is more than construction method that defines quality".
But yet from that same person, "I don’t get too worked up about the technicalities of shoes".
And "I’m more about how the look and feel, but more importantly how they make me feel, and my Dovers make me feel a million dollars".

So, how can there be any meaningful discussion about objective quality, if there is no appreciation about the "technicalities of shoes" and about what goes into them? What is quality then benchmarked against? "How they make me feel (subjective)"? "Looking and feeling (subjective) a million dollars"? With all due respect, this is absolutely preposterous. With not a single objective indicator of quality even mentioned.

And yet I quote another person "Well I feel we are talking about two different things here and its important to differentiate comparing the overall quality of the product vs bang for buck".

Well, I certainly do not recall ever conflating the 2 issues in any of my earlier posts. Discussions were certainly kept to being objective in nature pertaining to indicators of quality. I never once mentioned "value" or "bang for buck". Aside from the part where I implied it was ridiculous that shoes costing well over $1000 are GYW. I still stand by that statement, btw.

Now, on to the topic of "upper quality". Yes, this is important, and yes, it is an objective indicator of quality. Now, how do we define it? What constitutes "much better"? And in that same breath, how much better exactly?

Let's look at RTW shoemakers that make shoes on the scale of Vass / EG and the like. And now let's look at the tanneries that these makers buy from. To be honest, the good tanneries that supply the best full grain hides / materials to these makers, well, they are the usual suspects mostly. Annonay, Du Puy, Weinheimer, Ilcea, Zonta, JR, Baker, Masure, Haas, Horween, to name a few.

What are the measures that irrevocably guarantee, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that on EVERY SINGLE pair of EGs, the uppers are "much better" than EVERY SINGLE pair of Vass?

Has EG bought over Tanneries Annonay from Hermes, or have they bought over any tannery, for that matter, such that all the best hides are already pre-selected out and reserved ONLY for EG shoes?

Has EG pioneered a revolutionary new tannage from a specific tannery, better than all existing methods of tanning from all other tanneries, to be used only on EG shoes?

Does EG cut STRICTLY ONE pair of shoes, absolutely, per hide, from only the Grade A hides of any tannery they use? And correspondingly, is every pair of Vass cut from the shittiest part of the crappiest hides from any tannery they use?

Or perhaps, does EG hire a shaman to cast a spell on all the hides used on their shoes, to ensure that every pair has been bestowed magical properties and invulnerability?

Well, I don't think the answer is yes to any of the above. What I can say in their favour though, is that they generally click with less economy and greater discretion, and try to use good leather for their uppers. Good for them.

But I can say for sure, that EVERY pair of Vass, is handwelted with hand stitched outsoles (except rubber outsoles), and EVERY pair of EGs is GYW.

Now, a valid discussion here would now be economies of hide usage for uppers, and corresponding cost, to put things into perspective. Because this does have an impact on the consumer experience (maybe not so much as an individual, where luck comes into play, but as large groups in comparison with each other) in terms of upper quality.

Now, a hide of full grain calf leather, of good quality, costs about (conservatively) 100 Euros per square meter. The average size of one hide is approximately 2 square meters (approximately 20 square feet). Bringing the cost to 200 Euros per hide. A typical pair of shoes requires about 3 to 3.5 square feet of leather. Hide yield can be affected as well, by the design of the shoes. Wholecuts and balmoral oxfords (with a long vamp piece), will affect (decrease) how many pairs you can cut from the hide. The off cuts and really marginal and ****** parts of the hide are typically not used by the maker. A maker who is quite fastidious like Antonio cuts about 3 to 3.5 pairs per hide for his Argentum RTW range. Makers who cut more for economy might squeeze 4 to 5 pairs from each hide (small sizes). I am pretty sure EG does not cut strictly one pair per hide. So let's say we give them a whole lot of latitude and say they cut 2.5 pairs per hide, and even more latitude and say Vass cuts 4.5 pairs per hide. The cost price for upper leather for EG would then be 80 Euros, and the cost price for upper leather for Vass would be 45 Euros (hypothetical estimate). Making a difference of 35 Euros per pair, not considering shipping costs and tax. Even then, this permutation does not guarantee that the uppers for EG would definitely be better than Vass, since the pair of Vass that received the first cut from the hide, would then have "better quality" leather than the pair of EG that received the second cut from its hide.

Since the issue of lining was also brought up, let's discuss this as well. I do not think that a blanket statement of "thicker lining means better" is very accurate. I think it is more important to consider that the thickness of the lining should be commensurate with the thickness of the uppers. So let's say, for an average 1.2mm thickness of uppers for dress shoes, the lining should be about 1.0-1.2mm thickness. You do not want too thick a lining with respect to the uppers or you would end up with additional stiffness and rigidity you do not want. Moreover, the tannery is also able to split down the lining leather (be it calf or goat) to the desired thickness of the maker, usually at no additional cost, or at most, just a tiny bit extra.

BUT ANYWAY, since it was brought up, fine, let's factor in the cost for this as well. The typical cost price of good lining leather from say, Du Puy is about 40 Euros per pair of shoes. Let's hypothetically say Vass uses much shittier stuff (which I don't think they do) at 20 Euros per pair, bringing the difference in cost price for uppers and lining to be 55 Euros per pair of shoes.

As the Kaan involves upper work done in the UK, confounding the cost price of the shoes, let's just bring things out to the bigger picture of Vass as a whole vs EG as a whole. Do EG shoes cost ONLY 55 Euros more than Vass? For that matter, do EG shoes cost double that? Or maybe even triple that of 55 Euros? Do they? IIRC, they cost many many times more than 55 Euros.

And then, we also have yet to discuss the additional labour, time, and material cost that goes into handwelting. But let's just leave that out since EG fanboys are not convinced that this is of any significant importance.

Let's talk about upper failure then. Try gripping a part of the hide where it is the shittiest, the wrinkly belly part. Now try ripping the leather at that part with your bare hands. Can you do so? Next, try gripping at the fabric gemming of a GYW insole and rip it off, how easy is that?

And now, to address smaller points about "finishing" of the uppers. Well, I am really not quite sure what that means. Is this referring to the closing work? If yes, closing of the uppers occurs way before finishing, and moreover, I certainly don't think EG does a better job at this than Vass. If one is referring to finishing of the leather itself, well, the hides usually come already "finished" from the tannery. Unless the maker is using crust leather, then they have to do their own finishing, of sorts. Speaking of which, does that make the shoes "better" if the maker uses crust and then adds their own dye? Adds to cost for sure, but not sure about quality. Or is one then referring to a "patina" on finished leather? Well, nice to look at (to some), but objectively better?

And then lastly, again, finishing of the shoes. I have really yet to hear anything specific about how EG finishes the shoes that makes them "better".

The outsoles are machine stitched, not unlike many many other RTW makers, the SPI is decent, but so are many others. Finishing and fudging on the welt? Really mediocre to be honest. Sole edge finish? Again nothing special. See Bestetti RTW for really exemplary finishing of the sole edges. Waist construction? Anything special there? Blind welting? No. Beveled waist? No. Anything refined about the heel stack finish? Blocky and just about as bulky as most other RTWs. So no. Superior finishing? WHERE? I would really like to be enlightened.

Again, no offense meant to anyone, just the random ramblings of a fool.
 
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gmehra

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@ThunderMarch thanks for your response, lots of valuable information

on average how would you compare the leather quality of vass vs edward green?
 

saurabh

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Dover is versatile (both dressy and casual), if EG is the only shoe fits you well, then of course nothing else matter, but if AM fits you, then as far as I'm concerned you're getting a "better" shoe all around (upper/finishing, tighter heel/waist, basically everything)
@clee1982 - yes i do agree AM makes a better overall shoe with a higher instep as most Italian shoemakers do that.
if it fit me well i would absolutely go for that instead of EG. AM is not out of league for me.
@ThunderMarch - as per your post above some feedback and my personal opinion.
"Well, I don't think the answer is yes to any of the above. What I can say in their favour though, is that they generally click with less economy and greater discretion, and try to use good leather for their uppers. Good for them." ---- EG uppers are better and it could be for many reasons. better quality of hide or better part of the hide etc.

"Let's talk about upper failure then. Try gripping a part of the hide where it is the shittiest, the wrinkly belly part. Now try ripping the leather at that part with your bare hands. Can you do so? Next, try gripping at the fabric gemming of a GYW insole and rip it off, how easy is that?" ---- I don't think my C&J GYW shoes have fallen apart after 4 years of 3 days weekly abuse. If they did fail, the company will take care of the issue and there customer service is better than Vass for that matter.
A GYW shoe can be resoled 3-4 times and thats plenty for me. Can someone provide examples of their C&J/EG/G&G/Alden/Carmina/Allen Edmonds where the GYW construction has failed before resoling and fallen apart as a fairly new shoe.
@clee1982 - did your GYW shoes fallen apart and did you try to intentionally rip them apart.

"And now, to address smaller points about "finishing" of the uppers. Well, I am really not quite sure what that means. Is this referring to the closing work? If yes, closing of the uppers occurs way before finishing, and moreover, I certainly don't think EG does a better job at this than Vass. If one is referring to finishing of the leather itself, well, the hides usually come already "finished" from the tannery." --- The versatile colors of calf and country calf offered on EG are much better looking than Vass limited leather selection.
Vass carry scotch grain leather for grain leather which is far inferior to the Country calf offered by EG.
Does Vass carry Utah leather ? i don't think so.
The quality of suede of EG is also better than Vass suede.
Finishing of the uppers of EG shoes is better after its lasted/welted and burnishing is much better.
The comfort of the fit of 606/202 last is second to none.
Just saying EG is inferior to Vass because of hand welted construction is misleading as Quality of Uppers/QC/brand/Customer Service of EG is better than Vass and many times when Vass messes up they say its the Vass charm.
At the end of day what someone likes is purely a personal preference but i won't be spending $1100 on a Vass Kaan shoes where the uppers are average to EG.
 
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ThunderMarch

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This is not a personal attack, but well, yet again, I see more vague references.

"EG uppers are better and it could be for many reasons. better quality of hide or better part of the hide etc"

- Has this answered the question as to whether EVERY PAIR of EG has better upper leather than EVERY PAIR of Vass? Absolutely and unequivocally?
- The point is that every RTW maker makes bulk purchases of leather from any tannery they use. Some hides are good, some hides not so. Can anyone ensure unequivocally, that EG uses "better leather" for every pair? Do they cut only one pair from each hide to ensure absolutely the best part is used?


"I don't think my C&J GYW shoes have fallen apart after 4 years of 3 days weekly abuse. If they did fail, the company will take care of the issue and there customer service is better than Vass for that matter.
A GYW shoe can be resoled 3-4 times and thats plenty for me. Can someone provides examples where the GYW construction has failed before resoling and fallen apart as a fairly new shoe.
@clee1982 - did your GYW shoes fallen apart and did you try to intentionally rip them apart."


- What you have stated is a matter of "good enough", and does not pertain to "which is better" objectively.
- Sure, GYW shoes may last awhile, they might well not fall apart. Does that make GYW better than handwelting?
- My point is that the differences in "upper quality", present or not, perceived or not, would probably not be as structurally significant as the structural strength difference between GYW and handwelting.
- As far as I can see, customer service is also not a factor that influences the quality of the shoes. You can have the best customer service for the shittiest, cemented shoes. And you can have a total dickhead selling top notch handwelted bespoke shoes. This does not make the cemented shoes "better quality" than the handwelted bespoke ones. While good customer service has some effect on the overall customer experience when dealing with the brand, and also has some sway on consumer habits, it does not affect the quality of the shoes. Two completely separate things.


"The versatile colors of calf and country calf offered on EG are much better looking than Vass limited leather selection.
Vass carry scotch grain leather for grain leather which is far inferior to the Country calf offered by EG.
Does Vass carry Utah leather ? i don't think so."


- How does versatile colours on country calf make the shoes objectively better quality? They are "better looking" to you, but how does "versatile colours" constitute better? It gives the consumer more options, but again, does not influence the final quality of the shoes. So can one say that regular calf is inferior to country calf? In what way, exactly?
- In what way exactly is the scotch grain Vass uses inferior to country calf? Is there a special tannage? Are there different properties in terms of tensile strength? Or does country calf just "look better" to you.
- I might actually make the argument that country calf (an embossed calf), may potentially hide flaws (because of the embossing process) in the hide that are otherwise plain to the eye on regular smooth calf. So you may (though this may not be true) in fact be getting hides that have suboptimal grain otherwise hidden by the artificial surface texture imparted to it. Likewise, the same can be said for scotch grain leather.
- In what way does carrying Utah leather translate to a better pair of shoes being made, objectively? Again, what are the unique physical properties of Utah leather that translate to it being better?
- Everything mentioned above relates to variety, choice and consumer options, it has little to nothing to do with the actual quality of the shoes.


"The quality of suede of EG is also better than Vass suede"

- I will give you this. Because Antonio speaks well of this suede. Of course, he has even better.


"Finishing of the uppers of EG shoes is better after its lasted/welted and burnishing is much better"

- What specific finishing process is it that EG does to the uppers after lasting and welting that make it better? As I earlier mentioned, most of the leather already comes as finished, from the tannery itself.
- Are you referring to patination? Are you referring to burnishing with dyes / wax? Sure, it'll look better to some people. What if someone prefers plain, smooth, unpatinated calf, which is better then? Again, consumer preferences, nothing to do with quality. Unless you are saying the "finishing" that EG does on the uppers imbues some form of greater strength / physical durability and hardiness to the leather. I highly doubt this.


"The comfort of the fit of 606/202 last is second to none."

- Sure, to you, the 606 and 202 last fits your feet well. To the person next to you, the fit might well be horrible. While fit is of paramount importance and is a deciding factor for many people (and nothing wrong with that at all), to the person whose feet feel like crap in those lasts, but fits like a dream into the U and F lasts, which shoe is better then?
- Fit has never been part of the discussion here, although it is very important. I am not dismissing it, but again I am highlighting the subjectivity of it.
- My slippers fit me super well, maybe they are better than EG.

Saurabh, I am sorry if this comes off as abrasive, but really, I am just taking a step back and examining what are the factors that are directly indicative of "quality". Increased variety, versatility, more options, customer service, these have all some part to play in overall customer experience, and of course have great bearing on eventual choices. But really, I am just concerned about the shoes.

The shoes.
 

Wingtip77

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ThunderMarch likes Meccariello, therefore, they are the best. He bought some Vass recently and therefore they are the second best.

I would suggest he take a look at the Utah leather that Edward Green use. The quality is incredible.

Meccariello shoes are very good quality, but there is definitely an issue with the brand when he is selling shoes under his own name for a few hundred pounds. Some are handwelted, some are goodyear welted, and to understand which shoes are made which way requires you to read 200 pages of this thread.

If you are simply equating the quality of the shoe with the technical aspects required to make, then you are ignoring the history, the prestige, the customer relation, the brand, etc. The fact that Edward Green can get away with selling a Goodyear welted shoe for over £1000 is not a bad thing. It’s an amazing success.
 

ThunderMarch

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Contrary to what a certain individual believes, how I judge / quantify, or look at quality really has nothing to do with my initial purchasing choice.

I don't buy something, then decide that it is good, just because I have bought it. I buy something, look at it, and then ask myself, is this really good? And if it is worth buying again.

Eventually, I stopped at one pair for GG, 2 pairs of EG, and one pair for StC, and one pair of AC. Thankfully, they have mostly been gotten rid of. Yes, I did buy them. But I don't decide they are good, just because I bought them.

And yes, I have seen Utah leather. I've also seen Vocalou, Anilveau, old Ilcea, Zonta, CFS, and other examples of good leather.

And well, "history, prestige, customer relations, brand".... Sure, they once made great shoes. How does that really directly relate to current quality though? "An amazing success", yes, of marketing, of hype, of advertising maybe, not so much the shoes.

If someone wishes to pay for "history" and "prestige", that's really fine by me. That wasn't the original subject at hand though.

In any case, I knew the minute I first posted on the topic, that it would be (yet again) opening a Pandora's box. Perhaps it was my fault for even discussing the topic in the first place. But really, I had no expectations of getting through to everyone. I am always open to discussions though.
 
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saurabh

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@ThunderMarch - Clearly you have biased opinion about some makers like AM/Vass etc and a point of view which differs from many others who buy EG/G&G/Carmina/Alden/Corthay/Allen edmonds etc and their GYW shoes haven't failed. You also own one or two brands above and did they fall apart?
The liking of certain brands to people is due to many factors and not many just cares about hand welting alone.
Well i don't need to again stress enough again but for certain people it has to be a better fit, aesthetics, customer service, better brand and history, quality of leather etc.
IMO, I would always buy an Iphone than a Samsung because Apple has better customer service, design and usability than Samsung which has more features which is clearly a personal preference and not one is better than the other. Lot of people will agree and disagree on this above too.
At the end of day people will buy what they like and can't be bashing a brand because i don't like it and someone else does it more than me.
@dalevy - you also own Utah EG Galway and also AM shoe. Do you think they are inferior quality wise than your AM shoe.
Do you think the gemming is going to fail soon and ur shoes will break apart soon. do you think for this potential unlikely flaw EG will not stand behind their product.
@gmehra - you sell many brands at your store in Vancouver like Enzo Bonafe/Vass/G&G/Corthay etc.
Do you think hand welting is the only factor that people consider buying the shoes.
Did anyone come to you that their GYW shoes fell apart ?
What is your opinion on the quality of uppers comparing EG/G&G vs Vass/EB ?
 
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gmehra

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@ThunderMarch when someone makes a statement like maker X has better quality leather than maker Y - I don't think he or she is saying that every single pair of shoes ever made in the history of maker X has better leather than every single of pair of shoes ever made in the history or maker Y. Its just a general statement. I can see that you don't really like to make these types of general statements and prefer to delve into things very deeply which I respect. however I personally do not and don't think many on this forum do either. its still fun for many of us to have a discussion in general terms without writing a novel about their views/opinions

@saurabh handwelting is certainly not the only factor that people consider but it is seen by some as an added bonus. no I have not had any complaints of any shoes falling apart including blake stitched footwear from Enzo Bonafe. Ranking quality of uppers of the 4 brands you mentioned I would say 1. EG/GG (tie) 2. Vass 3. EB

Now just for fun and in general terms (without a huge explanation) heres my unbiased view on all the factors that have been discussed when ranking EG/Vass/AM. Note that AM is not included in all rankings due to him offering so many different lines of construction/quality

Leather Quality

1. EG
2. Vass

Leather Selection

1. AM
2. EG
3. Vass

Construction

1. Vass
2. EG

Customer Service for English Speaking World

1. EG
2. Vass
3. AM

Fit for people with low/regular instep

1. EG
2. Vass
3. AM

Fit for people with high instep

1. AM
2. Vass
3. EG

Bang For Buck

1. Vass/AM (Tie)
2. EG

Finishing / Bottom Work

1. AM
2. EG
3. Vass

Brand Value / Prestige

1. EG
2. AM/Vass (Tie)

Flexibility for MTO

1. AM
2. Vass
3. EG
 
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