Anna Matuozzo - A walk-through of my bespoke shirt purchase in Napoli.

[dopey]



Even Charvet does this. You can pay ludicrous surcharges for hand-stitching. They can do the buttonholes, front placket, sleeves, collar, etc. Each has its own price.

I prefer the idea that someone makes a shirt the way they think it should be made and that is what they sell. What about pockets? Would AM (or Charvet) charge extra? How about the extra buttons on a buttondown collar?
I get the idea that some handwork may take more time or require outsourcing at piece rates (if they admitted it), but it is weird that it is offered as a menu. I guess transparency and un-bundling is good. I look forward to the days when you pay by the stitch and cloth-inch. Then us little people will finally be free of subsidizing the Jabba-the-huts and beanpoles out there.

 

[dieworkwear]



Frankly, apart from hand-sewn components being romantic, IMO, the only real functional hand-worked feature on shirts are the hand-shanked buttons that make buttoning those gorgeous (but thick) buttons a little easier.

Romance, IMO, is no small or trivial part of the appeal of nice clothes. And there's nothing wrong with romance.

 

[etkl]



I think they are trying very hard to make a point about me, not my shirts.

That's partially true but not entirely. As a reader of the posts on this subject, I find more value in what Marco has to say than Foo because of Marco's more varied experience. As someone who has never been to Naples I am interested in more than what one maker has to offer. For Foo, it's AM or nothing. Otherwise, why would he go to Geneva, which is as far from the Naples experience as I imagine it to be. From my limited experience and from what others with greater experience have had to say, I believe that there is more variety in Naples than AM and those who make skin tight shirts.

 

[bboysdontcryy]



Romance, IMO, is no small or trivial part of the appeal of nice clothes. And there's nothing wrong with romance.

There's nothing wrong at all -- which is why I flew to Naples solely to have shirts and trousers made up. Wordsworth and Keats would call me a romantic.

 

[Hacking jacket]

Its a great thread... One issue is shirt-tourism: from personal experience I've had a bespoke shirt under-construction for almost 1 year, because I was never satisfied with the fit. I would wear it then return it for a more exacting fit (it is now a gorgeous fit BTW). I discovered it can be extremely hard to get a good fitting shirt for some clients, even more so than a jacket. I have no problem about paying for this level of service and in fact that is what I would consider a bespoke service.

A tourist could never get this level of service because you couldn't keep going back and returning it and even if you could you couldn't maintain the client loyalty for future orders.

That said nevertheless it is a fantastic thread.

 

[etkl]



I am amazed to hear that shirtmakers charge by the feature. I suppose it makes some sense for stuff people think is pretty, but not of practical use (like a monogram). But otherwise, it implies that the less tricked-out shirt is an inferior product.

I believe that Ascot Chang does that as well.

 

[dopey]



I believe that Ascot Chang does that as well.

What are their menu items? Is it the same idea - hand stitching costs more with prices by the item? Or does it cover things like spi (that would actually be cool and spi is one thing that actually makes an aesthetic difference to me) and pockets, etc.

BTW, I recently heard a good endorsement for Ascot Chang. What do you think of them?

 

[dieworkwear]



What are their menu items? Is it the same idea - hand stitching costs more with prices by the item? Or does it cover things like spi (that would actually be cool and spi is one thing that actually makes an aesthetic difference to me) and pockets, etc.

BTW, I recently heard a good endorsement for Ascot Chang. What do you think of them?

I use AC and really like them. Have never ordered off the menu though. I don't think a menu exists, but they do offer hand finished shirts for a higher price. Mine are all machine-made daily special take outs.

 

[etkl]



Napoli is not exactly "user friendly".  Anyone who has been here can attest to that.  I have lived here for almost 2 years and I want to effing murder someone at least 3x a day.  What tailors like Rubi and Anna offer is a chance to buy world famous bespoke clothing without having to spend weeks digging around in the bowels of the city.  For that convenience you must pay a price.  They and others like them have built an international name for themselves and is much easier (and safer) for other shoppers to follow a blazed trail. 

I am grateful for Marco's advice and local insight into the deeper layers of this onion and I plan to follow up on his suggestions.  I am also cultivating some other small operation bespoke opportunities and I'll gladly report back to the forum when I have something to report. 

A word on the actual shirt I posted above;  I can confirm that the shirt seemed a bit tight when I first put it on, but it never felt snug or pulled at the buttons when I sat, moved around, etc.  The arm holes seem a touch lower than I am used to, but I want to wear the shirt for a day before I consider changing this. 

I have heard that it is hard to navigate Naples. All the more reason to value the experience of those who have endeavored to do so rather than stick with the safer choices..

 

[TheFoo]



I prefer the idea that someone makes a shirt the way they think it should be made and that is what they sell. What about pockets? Would AM (or Charvet) charge extra? How about the extra buttons on a buttondown collar?
I get the idea that some handwork may take more time or require outsourcing at piece rates (if they admitted it), but it is weird that it is offered as a menu. I guess transparency and un-bundling is good. I look forward to the days when you pay by the stitch and cloth-inch. Then us little people will finally be free of subsidizing the Jabba-the-huts and beanpoles out there.

I tend to agree with you. I liked Charvet better when I thought they simply didn't believe in hand-stitching. Apparently, they will whore themselves out to the highest bidder. What a letdown.

That's partially true but not entirely. As a reader of the posts on this subject, I find more value in what Marco has to say than Foo because of Marco's more varied experience. As someone who has never been to Naples I am interested in more than what one maker has to offer. For Foo, it's AM or nothing. Otherwise, why would he go to Geneva, which is as far from the Naples experience as I imagine it to be. From my limited experience and from what others with greater experience have had to say, I believe that there is more variety in Naples than AM and those who make skin tight shirts.

I don't think you've been reading me very carefully then.

First of all, you wrongly refer to my Matuozzo experience as a "first date." That's a gross mischaracterization. I spent a long time looking at and studying different shirts out there, learning the differences between them. No, I have not used a dozen different shirtmakers--but for reasons I pointed out earlier, that is a ridiculous expectation or standard. You don't need to use a shirtmaker to decide whether you like their shirts. Thank the internet for that.

Like you, I was once fascinated with all things Naples. That's why I've made multiple trips there. But it only takes one visit to realize what is myth and what is not. It is immediately obvious that the city is not the sartorial mecca the internet once made it out to be. You don't need to be a local or an expert to see that--just a person with taste and eyes. Rather, think of Naples as a less prosperous Italian city that hence can support a large manual labor force (lots of tailors).

I explained why I switched to Geneva. Matuozzo let me down and I don't like dishonesty. Also, unlike others here, I never tried to pin down one reason why I use a certain shirtmaker or another. Chiefly, I liked Matuozzo's cut. Then, there is the hand-stitching and finishing, which is extremely neat and tidy, as well as extensive. But that is more of a bonus. Finally, there was the service. I was treated very well, pricing was transparent, and deliveries were timely.

I don't use another Neapolitan shirtmaker because I don't generally like Neapolitan shirts (I explained why) and can't be troubled to go rummage for one that suits me, particularly when I know it will be a pain to deal with them overseas. Hence, Geneva. It's not my ideal shirt--but it is good enough, the most important part to me (the collar) is just as good as Matuozzo's, and prices are much, much cheaper. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[dieworkwear]

Poor AmericanGent. All he wanted was to share with people photos of the nice shirt his wife bought him.

 

[etkl]



What are their menu items? Is it the same idea - hand stitching costs more with prices by the item? Or does it cover things like spi (that would actually be cool and spi is one thing that actually makes an aesthetic difference to me) and pockets, etc.

BTW, I recently heard a good endorsement for Ascot Chang. What do you think of them?

I have gone to AC several times with the intention of getting something made but I have never pulled the trigger. Some of it has to do with the fact that I have a shitload of shirting and the NY store doesn't do CMT. However, the last I looked they did have an inventory of such relics as Viyella in the old wool/cotton mix for a song.

When I was there last they had an offer to do a completely handstitched shirt for a $150 premium. I subsequently read here that the upcharge is $200. As I said, I've never had AC bespoke but I do have some fully handstitched AC RTW and the stitching is as nice as anything I've seen in person. Of course as said previously, all that handwork doesn't make for a better fitting or looking shirt.

I don't know if they woul;d adjust the spi for a price.

 

[etkl]



I tend to agree with you. I liked Charvet better when I thought they simply didn't believe in hand-stitching. Apparently, they will whore themselves out to the highest bidder. What a letdown.
I don't think you've been reading me very carefully then.

First of all, you wrongly refer to my Matuozzo experience as a "first date." That's a gross mischaracterization. I spent a long time looking at and studying different shirts out there, learning the differences between them. No, I have not used a dozen different shirtmakers--but for reasons I pointed out earlier, that is a ridiculous expectation or standard. You don't need to use a shirtmaker to decide whether you like their shirts. Thank the internet for that.

Like you, I was once fascinated with all things Naples. That's why I've made multiple trips there. But it only takes one visit to realize what is myth and what is not. It is immediately obvious that the city is not the sartorial mecca the internet once made it out to be. You don't need to be a local or an expert to see that--just a person with taste and eyes. Rather, think of Naples as a less prosperous Italian city that hence can support a large manual labor force (lots of tailors).

I explained why I switched to Geneva. Matuozzo let me down and I don't like dishonesty. Also, unlike others here, I never tried to pin down one reason why I use a certain shirtmaker or another. Chiefly, I liked Matuozzo's cut. Then, there is the hand-stitching and finishing, which is extremely neat and tidy, as well as extensive. But that is more of a bonus. Finally, there was the service. I was treated very well, pricing was transparent, and deliveries were timely.

I don't use another Neapolitan shirtmaker because I don't generally like Neapolitan shirts (I explained why) and can't be troubled to go rummage for one that suits me, particularly when I know it will be a pain to deal with them overseas. Hence, Geneva. It's not my ideal shirt--but it is good enough, the most important part to me (the collar) is just as good as Matuozzo's, and prices are much, much cheaper. What is so hard to understand about that?

What's hard to understand is that AM and Geneva shirts appear to be totally different animals and your move from one to the other seems to reflect a drastic change in taste. I assume your original due diligence led you to Geneva well before AM, given that you live in NYC. But you opted for AM. Yet having been satisfied with your aesthetic experience with AM, I would have thought your next step would have been to another Neopolitan maker, rather than Geneva. I guess your disenchantment with Naples is pretty much total.

 

[Hacking jacket]

Poor AmericanGent. All he wanted was to share with people photos of the nice shirt his wife bought him.

Agreed, but a mens' style forum isn't a customised confidence boost, you'd need to post the thread in a womens' style forum for that and I ain't sure his wife would approve of the female accolades.

 

[Griffindork]



I tend to agree with you. I liked Charvet better when I thought they simply didn't believe in hand-stitching. Apparently, they will whore themselves out to the highest bidder. What a letdown.

I suppose that is one way to think about it. I've always thought of it as them being able to accommodate any request, which to me is really the hallmark of Charvet. They will do whatever you want. It isn't as if when you order a shirt they present you with a menu of add-ons with a little price next to them. It is simply that if you desire something done by hand and you ask for it, they will charge you for doing so.