thanks for the comments, here is a side view, lighting sucks though. -btw not planning on wearing those shoes with them, they were just sitting in my lifting area at the time. I have a pair of PF Flyers #5 in all white coming in, I think they will go well. Or I have a brown pair of desert boots. I can't return them, so instead of trying to sell for a loss I think I will keep them and hope the thighs stretch out a good deal. I would exchange for a different cut from AW, but if I went up to the miners the upper thigh would be much to large. -other thoughts? And if you think a different cut would be better, which one?