Thanks guys. Quar, they were his fabric. He can get Italian fabric for cheaper than I can. Imatlas, yes sir. HomerJ, I agree. In these pics the fronts of the Ambrosis is nicer than the Chan imo, The back of the Chans look a bit cleaner than the Ambrosis though. I'll try to post pics later today of some other pairs from each. Nore, neither pants are perfect, but both are great. I have a fair amt of rtw pants and they often fit well, but one reason I like custom pants is that on rtw pants the pant legs tend to twist inward so that the crease sometimes falls on the inside of my feet rather than their front and center. NOt sure if this is caused by my body or the way some pants are cut. Maybe Despos or a tailor could answer that. GBR, I think that's a common if not standard feature of Ambrosi pants. I did not order it. The Chan pants have a secret pocket inside the waistband, as is common in Asian pants (at least the 6 ones I've tried in 3 countries). I believe I did request that, and Patrick said it was standard. I believe.