Alfred Sargent Premier or Grenson Rose Collection?

[jmonroestyle]

I will be placing an order soon for some British shoes.

I am interested in buying some plain and semi-brogue cap toe oxfords. I will buy some from Crockett and Jones, as I know their 341 last will fit.

I am also considering some Alfred Sargent Premier Collection shoes (Greenwich, Chatam, Aldeburgh, and Southwold) made on their 104 last as well as some Grenson Rose Collection shoes (Radley and Salisbury) on their 96 last.

Does anyone own any of these shoes or shoes from these collections from these two vendors, and would be able to comment on their fit and quality? Which do you like better and why?

Thanks,

Jess

 

[Duveen]

What is your current shoe collection like? Do you generally buy shoes in bulk? If so, do as you wish.

If not, I would strongly suggest pacing your acquisitions. If this forum is what piqued your interest in high-end men's shoes, you will likely be slowly driven further upmarket. C&J shoes are great b/c they combine styling and construction at a fair price point. I still mix in C&Js with EGs and other higher-end shoes. Sargents can definitely end being shoes that you wear 10 times and then decide that they are 'not elegant enough'.

FWIW, I would get a few pairs of good English shoes, wear them for a while and continue to peruse the forum, and only add more as you get a better feel for what you really want. You may decide that you would rather have one pair of Edward Greens (or Carminas) than two pairs of Sargents.

 

[Duveen]

One more thing, I actually went to Pediwear and took a look @ the styles you suggest. They are all good, basic shoes. There is definite overlap b/w your Grenson and Sargent choices (which is why you are asking, I assume).

Given that fit is important, I would definitely try on the Sargents at a good Brooks Brothers. They should have those styles, and the style names are usually the same (they are written on the side of the shoe in many cases). Check the sizing and how they look.

I haven't seen Grenson Rose shoes in person, but am not crazy about the lasts as they appear in photos.

Have you looked @ the Hallam, Audley and Welbeck from C&J? If their lasts fit, I might go in for those models. My advice would be to get fewer, better-quality shoes. If you really need quantity, look to Nordstrom Rack or other discounters and go fairly cheap on a few pairs that you intend to retire. For me, at least, full-price Sargent and others @ around $300-400 is an uncomfortable place to be. It is not enough $$ to get a really great shoe, but is enough that you won't want to just retire a pair when you get sick of it.

 

[A Harris]

I have a pair of Grenson Salisbury from the Rose collection in rust colored suede. The last shape is nice. The pictures I've seen of the Sargent premier shoes indicate a less than elegant last, so I would recommend the Grenson.

 

[KlezmerBlues]

Grenson's last 96 definitely is a really nice last in my opinion. I prefer that last over C&J's last 348 for shoes. The 96 reminds me alot of C&J's last 337. It is also a pretty narrow last that fits my feet nicely.

 

[alebrady]

is there somewhere online that you are able to see the last #'s of the grensons? thats my main complaint with pediwear - unless i am missing something, they dont seem to typically list the last number and its hard to see toe shapes

 

[kischi]

The pictures I've seen of the Sargent premier shoes indicate a less than elegant last

I have to disagree with that. I own a pair of Sargent's Premier Collection, the style is called "Greenwhich". I'm very satisfied with them. Good quality and a very elegant last in my opinion.

 

[A Harris]

Those don't look bad. I was thinking of pics of premier exclusive shoes posted by a forum member (doc Bresch maybe?)

 

[jmonroestyle]

Originally Posted by Duveen

One more thing, I actually went to Pediwear and took a look @ the styles you suggest. They are all good, basic shoes. There is definite overlap b/w your Grenson and Sargent choices (which is why you are asking, I assume).

Given that fit is important, I would definitely try on the Sargents at a good Brooks Brothers. They should have those styles, and the style names are usually the same (they are written on the side of the shoe in many cases). Check the sizing and how they look.

I haven't seen Grenson Rose shoes in person, but am not crazy about the lasts as they appear in photos.

Have you looked @ the Hallam, Audley and Welbeck from C&J? If their lasts fit, I might go in for those models. My advice would be to get fewer, better-quality shoes. If you really need quantity, look to Nordstrom Rack or other discounters and go fairly cheap on a few pairs that you intend to retire. For me, at least, full-price Sargent and others @ around $300-400 is an uncomfortable place to be. It is not enough $$ to get a really great shoe, but is enough that you won't want to just retire a pair when you get sick of it.

Duveen and all,

Thanks for your responses.

I have been following this forum for about 1 year.

Basically this is my shoe situation.

Up until a few days ago I didn't have even one pair of dress shoes I could wear. I have flat overpronated feet that swell a lot during the course of a day. I have chosen not to go the orthotic route, as when my feet swell everything changes, so I go for looser, flatter/lower arched footwear, that allows my feet to expand as needed.

I haven't owned any shoes for about the last 15 years, as I could never find anything that fit comfortably enough to wear. Thus, I have been wearing only bespoke cowboy boots (of which I have dozens of pairs that do fit well)and lace up ankle boots.

I thought I had the shoe situaton solved last summer when I bought some Alden shoes made on their Truflare last. They seem to fit great. However, it turned out the angle of the bottom of the last just put too much pressure on my feet along the outer edge at the base of my 5th metarsal bone causing pain that lasted for 20+ hours after I removed the shoes. I am having some specialists try to modify the shoes so this pain doesn't happen. However, I don't hold out much hope for success.

In the mean time I tried on most of the other Alden lasts, and found I can wear the Copley last, as it is wider fitting in the toe area, and snug in the heel (most of the other lasts were too narrow in the toe area, and if I changed the size or width I would throw off other aspects of the fit). It is shaped very similar to the Truflare last. However, the bottom of the last doesn't seem to have the angulation of the Truflare last, and it doesn't trigger the foot pain.

Because I am so flat footed, and have such a low instep, I think it best I stay only with lace up shoes that have about 5 eyelets. This way I can better control the fit of the width of the shoes. There are only 3 lace up shoes available on the Copley, and some of them are back ordered for at least 16 weeks, while others are already discontinued. I called around to the larger Alden dealers and was able to find a few pairs around the country. Since so few RTW shoes work for me, when I find one that fits, I buy at least 2 of each pair in both black and brown. I am now the proud owner of 7pairs of Alden shoes on the Copley last (black, brown, cap toes, straight toes, leather soles, rubber soles, all bluchers).

Now that I have exhausted my options with Alden, I am looking to British shoes in order to have some variety to my shoe wardrobe.

While in New York, I tried the C&J 341 last and I was surprised it actually fit me. I have given up on Italian shoes as anything I tried always pinched in the toes, as did any cheaper Nordstrom Rack kind of shoes.

I emailed Pediwear with a detailed description of my type of foot, and told them the C&J 341 last did work for me. Based on that information, they said the best lasts they would recommend for me to try in addition to the C&J 341 are the ones used for the shoes in my original post.

As you can see my options for RTW shoes is a very small list, so now that I have my Aldens, a few British lace up oxfords, and blucher shoes (plain, cap toe, semi-brogue), some with leather and some with Dainite soles. should pretty much do it or me.

I would like to stay in the C&J price points. The Lobbs and EG's are very nice. However, in addition to their more expensive price points, they seem a little "delicate" for my tastes. I really like my Alden flex welt shoes. They are soft leather, yet very solidly built shoes.

I was in Brooks Brothers today and tried some of the Peal shoes. They had the last #s written inside them so I new which was C&J and which was AS.

Although these shoes looked like the C&J and AS branded shoes, they were made on different lasts than the ones Pediwear recommended for me (the above shoes) and most of them didn't fit correctly (although the AS medallion perforated cap toe made on the AS 87 last although not a horrible fit, was just not quite good enough to buy).

Although I have some pointier toes on my bespoke cowboy boots, for shoes, I would rather have a fuller shaped toe (either rounded or square). As a result I am leaning toward the C&J 341 last (Ashdown, Radstock, and maybe Grasmere on the C&J 325 last). I am also considering the C&J Westfield, as well as the other models I mentioned in my original post.

For me the most important factor is fit, so I may have to try a few of the shoes to find the best fit for me. Since my universe of possible options is so limited, the most I have to risk is some international shipping fees, which is relatively a small amount of money, compared with the satisfaction I will get from a lifetime of wearing great looking, great fitting shoes.

Anyway, now perhaps my thinking and plan of attack is a little more clear.

Thanks again for all your help and any further suggestions.

I was hoping to find a semi-brogue blucher that would fit, but I currently don't know of any options among the mid-priced British vendors. Alden does one, but it is on the Aberdeen last which I can't wear. I figure the next best shoe for me would be a semi-brogue bal, which is why I am considering the C&J Westfield, or the shoes I mentioned earlier.

Jess

 

[Golf_Nerd]

Originally Posted by jmonroestyle

Duveen and all,

Thanks for your responses. I have been following this forum for about 1 year. Basically this is my shoe situation.

Up until a few days ago I didn't have even one pair of dress shoes I could wear. I have flat overpronated feet that swell a lot during the course of a day. I have chosen not to go the orthotic route, as when my feet swell everything changes, so I go for looser, flatter/lower arched footwear, that allows my feet to expand as needed.

I haven't owned any shoes for about the last 15 years, as I could never find anything that fit comfortably enough to wear. Thus, I have been wearing only bespoke cowboy boots (of which I have dozens of pairs that do fit well)and lace up ankle boots.

They seem to fit great. However, it turned out the angle of the bottom of the last just put too much pressure on my feet along the outer edge at the base of my 5th metarsal bone causing pain that lasted for 20+ hours after I removed the shoes. I am having some specialists try to modify the shoes so this pain doesn't happen. However, I don't hold out much hope for success.

However, the bottom of the last doesn't seem to have the angulation of the Truflare last, and it doesn't trigger the foot pain.

Because I am so flat footed, and have such a low instep, I think it best I stay only with lace up shoes that have about 5 eyelets. This way I can better control the fit of the width of the shoes. There are only 3 lace up shoes available on the Copley, and some of them are back ordered for at least 16 weeks, while others are already discontinued. I called around to the larger Alden dealers and was able to find a few pairs around the country. Since so few RTW shoes work for me, when I find one that fits, I buy at least 2 of each pair in both black and brown. I am now the proud owner of 7pairs of Alden shoes on the Copley last (black, brown, cap toes, straight toes, leather soles, rubber soles, all bluchers).

Thanks again for all your help and any further suggestions.

Jess

Hello Jess,

in germany my shoemaker is working with a building set.

The costumer decides the look and colour. The shoemaker looks for the sizes and the other problems. A company in the UK is cutting the leather. The shoemaker sews the leather.

He has an orthopaedic education and will built the shoe as needed. The costs are from 600 Euro to about 800 Euro.

I think there should be no pain. And you should have the design you like.

Yours
Alexander

 

[jmonroestyle]

Thanks for the info Alexander.

Bespoke shoes are my last resort.

It took me many years, and lots of $$$ to find a bespoke cowboy boot maker that could make me boots that I am satisfied with. I had many failures until I found my current bootmaker. I hope to not have to go through that all over again with shoes unless I absolutely have to.

I know lots of fitting tricks to improve the fit of RTW footwear, so if I can find some additional shoes that are at least close to a proper fit, I'm sure I can dial them in the rest of the way.

My biggest concern is making sure the lasts are built wide enough in the toe area, as this is one of the most painful places a shoe can hurt one's foot.

The Alden Copley last seems to be built wider in the toe area than most other American lasts I have tried, so my goal is to find some English lasts that would have a similar shape.

If the English lasts I am aiming for are a little fuller fitting, then that is a good thing. I would always rather have a little sloppier fit, than a last that is too narrow.

I am thinking I may just skip the semi-brogues with toe medallions, and focus on some plainer oxfords and bluchers with and with out Dainite soles.

If the Grenson 96 last is similar in shape to a C&J 337, and is narrow fitting, I may have to toss that one out, as I would rather not buy shoes with a chisel toe. Grenson also has some options on a 107 last (Kent/Walsgrave), and Barkers has some interesting looking shoes on a 351 last (Louth/Goya) but so far I know nothing about how these lasts fit, and if they have a generous amount of toe room.

In addition to shoes on the C&J 341 and 325 lasts, I may give the Tricker's Henley on the 6038 last a try, as I have heard it is fuller fitting.

The AS Southwold/Aldeburgh on the 104 last with a UK EE fitting may still be an option. If the mid section is cut just a little fuller than the BB Peals AS shoes on the 87 last marked a US D, then the last may work as the BB shoe did have enough toe room. If the 104 UK EE proves to be too narrow, the AS 87 last in a UK F or maybe the AS 106 last in a UK F may be options.

I am not looking to buy lots and lots of different kinds of shoes. A few basics should do it. I just want to know I bought shoes on the lasts that are best shaped for me.

The feedback I am getting here is really helpful. I am processing all the information about how the various vendor's lasts fit. I am sure this info will help me cut my failure rate way down, and minimize the amount of shoes I have to send back because they don't fit.

Jess

 

[jmonroestyle]

Today I took the plunge and placed my shoe order with Pediwear.

After many hours of research, deliberations, and back and forth emails with Pediwear regarding which shoe brands and which lasts etc., I decided to order the following shoes.

1. C&J Ashdown- Dark Brown Country Calf

2. C&J Radstock- Black calf

3. C&J Grasmere- Black Scotch Country grain

4. Tricker's Henley- Brown calf

I ordered all the shoes 1/2 size down from my usual American shoe size, which should give me the toe room I always need. I would always rather wear a heavier sock or even add an inner sole if needed, then have pinched toes.

I feel pretty sure the Ashdown and Radstock will fit, because I already tried the Westfeld on the C&J 341 last.

From my research I learned that the Grasmere on the 325 last is similar to the 341 except the toe area is wider. This sounds very promising, as I need a somewhat more rugged shoe in black.

I went with the Tricker's Henley for several reasons. I really like the medium brown color of the calf skin they are using. The Grenson Salisbury and Alfred Sargent Southwold are darker shades of brown, which are very close in color to my Alden Copley last shoes (of which I now own 3 pairs in dark brown). This way I will have some color variety. I have been advised that this shoe fits wider up front than other Trickers shoes such as the Kensington and Regent, and would be a better choice if I need more toe room. I tried on a Tricker's shoe in New York that seemed to have a similar shaped last to the Henley. That shoe fit, so I am hoping the Henley will also. If it does I will get one in black also. If this shoe doesn't work I may try the C&J Connaught. I have heard this is a very full fitting last, but it may be an option.

If the Grasmere fits I will order it again, both in Tan and Walnut, as this type of shoe is very useful in the Pacific Northwest. I may also go for the Sedbergh as well.

I may still try the Alfred Sargent Aldeburgh/Southwold and Grenson Salisbury on the next go round, as this is the only way to know for sure I am wearing the best fitting lasts, and I think it is a good idea to have a few extra black and brown bals in one's rotation. The AS and Grensons bals have square toes, while the Trickers are round, so that should give me at least a little visual variety.

Since the universe of shoes that both interest me and have a chance of fitting is so small, this should do it for me for shoes for quite some time.

Jess

 

[jmonroestyle]

My British shoes arrived today.

I recieved 3 pairs. The C&J Radstock, and Grasmere, and the Tricker's Henley.

I will be keeping the Radstock and Henley. However, I will be sending back the Grasmere. It is really too full fitting in the vamp area over my toe base. If that were the only issue, I would keep and wear the shoes, as I like some extra room, as it accommodates my feet when they swell toward the end of the day. However, the main problem is that the arch of the C&J 325 last is just a little too high for my very flat feet, and it digs into the soles of my feet. I tried the shoes with a heel cushion, but I just can't make them work. The Radstock on the 341 last doesn't have this problem.

I originally ordered a pair of C&J Ashdown shoes also. However, I cancelled the order because they were not in stock. Today I was able to locate a pair, so I reordered them.

Since these are made on the C&J 341 last, I won't have the fitting issues with these that I had with the Grasmere.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for shoes that would have a similar toe shape and style to the Grasmere (or a square toe like the Alden Plaza last would work also) with a rubber/Dainite sole, and are made of calf leather?

Brooks Brothers has a similar shoe made by Allfred Sargent on the 87 last, but it fits like the Grasmere, and Alden's options are on the Barrie last, which I know doesn't work for me, or the Leydon, which I haven't tried yet, but I am told it has less toe room than the Plaza last, and I was advised to avoid it if toe room is an issue.

Any other ideas in the C&J Benchgrade price range, or a little more or less?

Jess