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Aesthetics and Semiotics in fashion and culture

coldforge

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I think there's a disconnect that gives a lot of people trouble when this sort of topic comes up. Basically I think there's two layers of young, internet bound men who want to dress well:

2. There's most of the people here, who don't mind spending a shitload of money on clothes, who know about labels and what things like F/W11 and DBSS mean, and basically see dressing well as an art form—whether that means dressing extravagantly, edgily or elegantly, dressing classically or idiosyncratically—they see it as an expression of personal taste, aesthetic, and skill;

1. There's people whose main concern is essentially emerging from a state of not knowing how to dress _at all_. Maybe they are college students who have become self-conscious about only owning graphic tees and Armani Exchange, or maybe they're programmers who are trying to grow oup of wearing too-short Dockers every day on account of just never having given a **** about clothes up until now.

Both groups might find themselves on SF even though their values clash in many areas. A blog like Put This On or Nerd Boyfriend is essentially geared towards the latter; it's not a matter of disdaining goth ninja, or claiming APCs and Clarks as a personal style, because the latter group is trying to dress 'like a grown-up'. They're looking to learn and practice the rules of dressing appropriately and competently, and have the (not-unfounded) feeling that wearing head-to-toe J Crew makes them a lot more stylish than wearing a Threadless tee and Old Navy denim. The notion that there's no creativity doesn't really enter into it.

Nevertheless, a thread like WAYWT understandably will frustrate those in the first camp. If I'm jet or kunk, or a similarly high-level player, it's hard not to bring the sensibility of display and artistry to a series of 'dressed by the internet' pictures. Hell, I'm never gonna own a stitch of Rick Owens myself, and I still get pretty ******* bored by plaid and raw denim.

But the trick here is that people in the second group don't see themselves as simply moving along a spectrum, with ownership in the first group at the end. The vast majority of people who have become interested in menswear over the last couple years, and turned to the internet, have not done so because they'd eventually like to attain massive swagger status. It doesn't make much sense to treat them like novices in the whole fashion game. And I have friends who, for years, have been very happy cobbling together a modest, conservative wardrobe, going on Gilt nearly every day, never spending more than $100 on a pair of shoes, never buying anything flashier than maybe a tweed sportcoat, and still deriving a good deal of pleasure from their clothes and their ability to dress well.
 

skitlets

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Originally Posted by Lane
1) I think the problem here is there are people who have hijacked this aesthetic to cater to their machismo bullshit because it gives them a sense of masculinity by living within a construct they consider "style but not fashion." Fashion repulses these types because they fear becoming the skinny jean/tight clothes wearing feminine boyish individual who is into "fashion." I think they try to draw this artificial line between their style and fashion in order to safeguard themselves from their own insecurities that stem from their interest in fashion and design.

Well said!
 

coldforge

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I think that's SLIGHTLY uncharitable. I agree that the style/fashion divide is a false one, and further I'll agree that there's definitely a feminized association with fashion that I think a lot of people are trying to avoid—but I don't think it's necessarily out of machismo and insecurity. I think that many of the Put This On/Cary Grant/Steve McQueen crowd have a whole host of associations with the greater world of 'fashion' that they're trying to avoid. Some of it is homosexuality, but there's also vanity, expense, frivolity. Indeed, if you are trying to learn to dress like Steve McQueen—understated, masculine, cool, unfussy, timeless—you're trying to dress like a _grown-up_. Like an adult. And so femininity is just one, along with the above litany, of qualities that is not only antithetical to masculinity but also to being an _adult_ man.
 

Daddy-O

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I believe the idea of workwear and heritage thrives, regardless of the wearer's age or occupation. We all wear uniforms of one type or another -- as a lawyer, I have noticed my business increase substantially simply by wearing a suit and tie everyday. My existing clients expect a lawyer to dress well, conservatively, but well, and people I meet assume I have some reason to dress up. They ask me why, and I tell them I was in court today. They now know what I do and perhaps more importantly, that I embrace my role rather than hide from it.

The aesthetic (and semiotic) part involves my choice of what I am doing. Certainly I can function in the world without dressing like a lawyer, but I chose my profession in part because I enjoy dressing up. And I confirm the image by dressing accordingly. Where did I learn how? College and law school. They are finishing schools for both the way you speak and the way you dress. I still remember watching Archibald Cox walk by (the Watergate special prosecutor) in a Brooks Brothers suit, oxford button down, brogue wing tips, and bow tie (a bar tie, not a butterfly). That will always be my image of an East Coast ivy league lawyer.

The interesting issue for me is how a profession enforces its look. We have court rules that require ties for men, but not much for women. And over time, women have taken more latitude with what they can and can't wear. But I think regardless of gender, the boundaries are the same: we want to be taken seriously by all present in the courtroom. How to achieve that with our dress is a question we answer each day.
 

Cacatfish

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Originally Posted by Lane
1) I think the problem here is there are people who have hijacked this aesthetic to cater to their machismo bullshit because it gives them a sense of masculinity by living within a construct they consider "style but not fashion." Fashion repulses these types because they fear becoming the skinny jean/tight clothes wearing feminine boyish individual who is into "fashion." I think they try to draw this artificial line between their style and fashion in order to safeguard themselves from their own insecurities that stem from their interest in fashion and design.

So, to actually answer the question I'd say so, but I don't see much room for growth in the aesthetic. I see too much carbon copies and nothing truly distinguishable between various "heritage" stuff. In fact it leads me to my next point.

2) Uh, I wouldn't say so, but it depends. I greatly detest Ralph lauren/Jcrew/ wearing douchebags because they have no taste, and are simply striving for adulthood too fast. I think they are trying to distinguish themselves from the masses by wearing clothes they believe will cause others to perceive them as adults or someone who deserves respect. Its almost like they I see them as wannabe ivory tower intellectual elites sometimes.


I cant help but think there is a whole lot of projection going on here.
I dont see any contingent of people "highjacking" heritage fashions. Do these people appoint themselves as spokepeople for said fashion here? On the street? Do they speak loudly and for everyone? i really dont see it much on SF (or Sufu) at all to be honest. In fact, I see much more of a villainization of these supposed boogymen than I actually see of them asserting such biases.
Some people do like to dress in a fashion that is more masculine, and maybe more reminiscent of fashions of the "golden age". Why is that a problem?
There may be a few people who try to differentiate their "style" from others' "fashion" but is that really such an important stickng point? Seems like some are just getting stuck on semantics and using it as a red herring.

If I can paint with a really broad brush here, I would say the people I see in more heritage fashions are more likely to be:

-rural
-blue collar
-larger in size

While the more "urban" or designer fashions appeal more to:

-urban
-white collar
-more slight builds that seem to be more tailored to those kinds of clothes.

I know that's pretty general, but maybe it shows that some people will gravitate towards mone fashion or another by nature. I know that workwear was always a default fashion for me, because I grew up around that. My family ran a sawmill and I spent most of my time as a kid at mill sites or in saw shops. That was pretty much how I figured people dressed. I see a lot more nowadays, some I like and some I dont, but likes and dislikes arent really cut across masculne/feminine or old/young lines.
 

Lane

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projection? I wear bra shirts
 

Cacatfish

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Originally Posted by Lane
projection? I wear bra shirts

If this is a reference to something in particular then I'm completely missing it.
 

BlackToothedGrin

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Lane,
JfDVD.jpg
 

mk.ultra

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Originally Posted by GraphicNovelty
So a lot of us like to talk about the aesthetics and semiotics of fashion and clothing but I personally don't want to **** up the WAYWT/RFT thread, so I'll figure we'll move the discussion here.

Some things to think about:

-Is workwear/heritage still a legitimate concept despite the proliferation of obnoxious "fashion not style" people?
-Is prep a totally worthless aesthetic?
-Is wearability within context something we should consider when judging an article of clothing or a fit?
-Is it possible to objectively judge and deconstruct our own aesthetic preferences? Is it possible that we ourselves are focusing on the wrong thing?
-To what extent is brandwhoring acceptable?
-How much can we look at marketing/hype, both positive or negative, when judging a peice of clothing?
-How can one deal with charges of elitism as it regards high-cost items?


Initial thoughts:

You're overthinking this way too much.
 

reprehensible

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Originally Posted by mk.ultra
Initial thoughts:

You're overthinking this way too much.


Read a different thread?
 

Transcendental

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Originally Posted by GraphicNovelty
-How can one deal with charges of elitism as it regards high-cost items?

Accept it. Who gives a ****, you're better than them.
 

noob in 89

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Before jumping in, Graphic, could you please explain the difference between an aspirational style and a reified aspirational style? I mean, I get each term on their own, but you seem to attribute to the latter a special, maybe more concrete or practical (?) meaning....
 

bumper crop

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Originally Posted by Cacatfish
I like the post by kwoyeu but I come from a different angle. Not only do I think it's impossible to separate our visceral impressions from our cultural judgements regarding an outfit..... I wouldn't want it to. I think I'd be bored silly if it was all about color coordination and fabric pilling. Fashion is much more interesting to me as an entry point to a more personal inquiry.

^this.
 

ManofKent

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Originally Posted by Cacatfish
...
If I can paint with a really broad brush here, I would say the people I see in more heritage fashions are more likely to be:

-rural
-blue collar
-larger in size

While the more "urban" or designer fashions appeal more to:

-urban
-white collar
-more slight builds that seem to be more tailored to those kinds of clothes.
...


I think this a good point - there's some cross over but on the whole...

I can appreciate urban fashion, but both living in a pretty rural locale (if it wasn't dark I could see sheep from where I'm sitting), and being larger of build I'm going to look pretty daft in skinny jeans. I'm not as sure about the blue/white collar thing but then I'm white collar with a blue collar background. I think age probably has some influence too with heritage probably having a slightly older demographic.
 

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