Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by hopkins_student, Mar 3, 2005.
1 Zegna MTM suit in mid-range fabric = $2395
retro- yes, I agree that for every suit maker you will find someone who had a problem with them. However, I really have read quite a bit on here disparaging Chan.
-I do think you have to give every detail to Chan, or any bespoke suit maker. Thats why I wouldnt want to go through the process as a 22 year old.
-I recall a thread where someone thought he was getting some aspect of his Chan suit coat handmade, and instead it was machine made. It was something like the buttonholes, or the chest being fused. somethign like that. I will do a search when I have more time to try to dig it up.
-most of the forum members here love a bargain, myself included. But I do think the "what a great suit, but..." thing happens on every thread I have ever read about Chan. Same goes for Jantzen. I recall one guy, after an endless wait, got a shirt with the thread around the button being the wrong color. I truly do believe you get what you pay for.
I visit HK 4 times a yr on business, and one of my main contacts there is quite a clotheshound. I went on a fitting with him and saw some suits being made. I dont recall the name of the tailor, but at about the same price point as Chan. I wasnt impressed. Im not impressed with 14 year old girls making suits, and thats what I saw. Im not saying thats what Chan does, but having travelled extensively throughout China and HK over the past 10 years, I know I didnt magically stumble upon the only place that does that.
for a 22 yr old guy who is getting his first suit, I would send him to a good department store and have fun with the MTM program. zegna will be fine, and it will get done and be a great suit.
I don't think you are fair to call it "disparagement." Â I think that many people have problems with first orders done in the US, but I think people seem largely happy with subsequent orders. Â I changed some details after my first order, and have been happy with every order since. Â
If you do find that old thread, I'd be interested. Â I know people have posted similar things about Raja or Ravis, but don't recall seeing such things about Chan. Â WW Chan pants are almost entirely machine work, but the coats are done with lots of hand work, including the buttonholes and pad stitching of the lapels. Â They don't fuse anything in the coats.
I have no idea what WW Chan's labor force looks like, but I wouldn't be surprised if you are right.
I own a W.W. Chan suit that I had patterned off of a Belvest suit that I own, and it's one I wear fairly often to pretty good effect. It's not quite as nice as the original in terms of detailing or handwork, but is in a very nice fabric (LP Super 130s) and fits like a glove, and I believe the cost was just over $1k for suit/2 pants.
I also believe hs mentioned that he had other Zegna suits already. Furthermore, I imagine the construction of the Chan suit would compare favorably with that of the Zegna MTM, at half the price, and you would be able to dictate detailing to a much larger degree.
Don't get slanted hacking pockets on the jacket. Go with a two-button jacket. Get the standard welt breast pocket and straight flapped double besom pockets below. Skip the ticket pocket. Side vents, yes. Quarter lining, optional. If you're going to get two pairs of pants, maybe you could get one "standard" pair and one pair with a high split back. A vest might be a nice touch. All buttonholes should be handsewn and doublesided. The only downside with Zegna is that the cost will add up quickly. With Chan you'll probably be able to get an extra pair of pants and a vest and still stay under what the same would cost from Zegna.
You may be right about the Raja reference. You bring up an interesting point though - "many people have problems with the first orders in the US (Chan)" . Consider this is the one suit the guy is buying. There may be no next suit, at least not for a while. I wouldnt risk it with Chan. What happens if it goes badly.
The labor situation, thankfully, is improving in China and HK. Ive seen it in my own industry. On my first trip there a decade ago there were girls working on manufacturing boxes that couldnt have been older than 10. On my last trip it looked like I was in Queens or NYC, very professional, a whole different world than just a decade ago.
I would have to say that the first suit a person gets should never be bespoke. There are just too many variables. MTM would be a good way to go even though I think that maybe stretching it. Alas, if a person been on this forum for a bit of time then MTM to OK. I myself would opt for a good RTW first. I think it would be hard to get the first suit from WWChan perfect. There is only one fitting. If one was to list every detail on a sheet of paper and recite it word for word, then maybe. But by no means is the first suit unwearable. My first suit fits like a glove, just some of the details need to be changed. A great no-nonsense suit. I remember reading somewhere that it really takes 3 suits for any tailor before all details are correct. My second suit is much much better and this upcoming one, I am sure will be near the ideal that I want. To sum it up, for bespoke, KNOW what you want.
MTM is a great middle of the road. All the options are laid out in front of you. Perhaps WWChan needs a system similiar to this. Patrick would run through a list of questions so as to be as inclusive as possible. Go for MTM if you really want but I would say again, consider RTW first unless you have a really unusual body shape.
I could be wrong but I don't believe this is h_s's first suit, rather just a project he was considering.
I've had Zegna MTM suits, so here is my suggestion: - the first suit they made me came out totally wrong. Too big, baggy, long, all wrong; a size too big for me. They agreed and I returned it. They gladly made me another suit. -the second suit was more or less spot on. The difference between the two suits was that I had an experienced tailor measure me the second time in a Zegna boutique; while the first suit was measured by a salesman in a department store. Recommendation: only get measured in a Zegna boutique by their top tailor, not a salesman. Getting measured properly is the most important point in your eventual satisfaction with the suit. -I like the Napoli Couture style; more expensive, more handwork, much softer than their other models. Also, special fabric selection if you want to pay the extra money. Recommendation: study and acquaint yourself with the different models and the choices you have within each model line. For example, within the Napoli Couture line, who can specify how much padding you want in the shoulder and canvas in the chest. I specified the least padding; the suit came out very soft. It's one of my favorites now. To be happy with the end result, you need to direct the tailor who measures you and so, need to know exactly what you want; get the form which they use to record your measurements and "pre-design" a suit for yourself: how wide the trouser cuff, how high the trouser rise, how wide the shoulders, etc. etc.; learn all of the most minute options and choices you have: pocket styles, trouser pleating, etc. Bring in a suit that you already like as a reference for them. They should a booklet with diagrams of all of the various options on coats and trousers. Take your time and study that carefully. If you really get involved, put the prior thought and research into your suit, and VERY importantly - get measured properly, I think you will be happy with the result. But alot of it is really up to you. Zegna is a factory, all automated. Your first and last chance for input on the suit is at the time of taking your measurements; once you order is in, that's it. Your suit will come back finished. If there are minor adjustments, yes, they can fix it at the boutique but nothing major, not even the sleeve length if you have specified working button holes. Zegna MTM is expensive; I would bet that you can get a fine bespoke suit made depending on where you live, for close to the same price. Consider that alternative. The Zegna fabrics are beautiful, particularly the Napoli couture selection. They can make the suit quite a bit more expensive but a beautiful, distinctive fabric can really make a well-cut suit "pop", make your MTM suit look like a million bucks rather than merely a "nice" suit. Think about it. Go over their fabric books. Sometimes it's nice to be a bit more adventurous rather than safe. Finally, because Zegna is a big outfit, if you're not happy with the result because they got it wrong, just decline to accept it and they will make you another. That's a reassuring feature of working with Zegna. Send us a picture.
I second uppercase's caveat about avoiding MTM at department stores. As mentioned in another thread, my worst tailoring experience involved a Zegna MTM suit, for which I was measured by the store's tailor, with a totally unacceptable result.
If someone needs one damn good suit, doesn't want to jerk around with multiple orders, and needs it as quickly as possible, I agree that going to a Zegna boutique is pretty much the closest thing to a guarantee of satisfaction that there is. And on someone else's dime this is a great choice.
However, depending on the cloth selections, you can get 3 suits from WW Chan for the price of one MTM from Zegna. So if there are things to modify on the first order, you can get them sorted out and order two more, and end up with three suits when all is done. Since I need to have several suits in my rotation, on my own money, this is the better path for me. And I've yet to see anyone say that they received an unwearably bad suit on a first order from WW Chan--most of the time the "buts" are things like "but I wanted shorter sleeves/less waist suppression/softer shoulders," many of which can be addressed through alterations.
retro- Well said, and I agree with you. Having gone through a number of tailoring adventures over the years, I like to order something, know I am going to get what I want, and be done with it. Thats why the majority of my suits come from RL MTM. I order them, 8 weeks later, there they are. I have ordered 14 of them over the past 5 years. Not one has taken a day longer than 8 weeks. Not one has had a single solitarty issue. I like that piece of mind.
My MTM Zegna navy Soltex suit just arrived...flawless. Luka has to hem the pants and I'm good to go. During the process, the factory called the store to confirm the jacket measurements, as they were slightly different from my last order. A lot to pay but everything was done as requested. I'll post pictures once I pick it up, in a week.
Yes, it was.
You wouldn't be surprised with Zegna's high level of customer care and quality product if you knew their head office MTM people.
I saw their global head of MTM yesterday. They run a very tight outfit, no questions asked - the customer is always right.
They make it a point that you will walk away satisfied.
When traveling, he is in constant touch with his office on every minor detail of every suit order he personally takes: do we still have this material in stock, can the factory make this silhouette with this non-standard feature....you get instant feedback. He's a young guy, still takes the measurements himself. Very conscientious and reliable and that's how he runs his MTM business worldwide.
I didn't order a thing this time around - no pressure - just shooting the breeze for an hour. First class. Very nice, very serious and reliable people. And you always learn something from him each time. Dresses like a god.
Separate names with a comma.