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Advantages of a $1000 Pair of Shoes

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by MCanavan6, Aug 20, 2012.

  1. hendrix

    hendrix Senior member

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    bengal stripe:

    I seriously didn't mean for this to start again.

    My understanding is that, all other things being equal, handwelting is more sturdy construction than GY welting. If we take Permanent Style's example, we can see that a re-crafting occurred after just 5 years. I'm not wealthy, I don't want to have to pay for a whole re-crafting when resoling is all that the shoe should need. The fact that Edward Green seems to only offer re-crafting -not allowing the option of resoling - seems to me to be evidence to the fact that they are aware that the gemming will often need to be glued back down during re-soling.

    I've made this choice based on what is affordable to me. It certainly doesn't mean that it applies to everyone here, and I frankly don't care what anyone else pays for a recraft.

    Every shoemaker that i've read about, whether they've seen gemming failure or not, will tell you that handwelting, when done properly, is a more structurally sound method than gemming.

    Again, this probably doesn't matter to most people, but it does to me.

    This is my logic.

    anyone else can do whatever they please.


    Seriously, how is this a reasonable request???

    If you would like to pay me, I'll set up shop at a cobbler and do a scientific survey of 5000 gemmed shoes and 5000 handwelted shoes taking down all data possible.

    Maybe I can fit it in as part of my PhD.


    But in actuality you're asking for quantitative data on what should be viewed as a qualitative feature.


    Exactly, and I'd rather have my shoes made to a way in which they don't need a recraft when it should just be a re-soling. It's cheaper over the long run.




    This is not very good logic.


    The answer is they probably don't know.

    They buy luxury shoes and they don't care about how much it costs to recraft. They probably don't even know the difference between a recraft and a resole.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  2. Gdot

    Gdot Senior member

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    Hendrix, Here's a vid on half soles (including adding a rubber heal). My main problem with it is that it looks like shite when not done with the care shown in this video. (Which is the norm) It just emotionally seems like a criminal thing to do to a good pair of shoes. I frankly don't know if it's functionally inferior to a full resole or not. Although I've done it on shoes of lower quality or those that are getting really shabby. I still have an old pair of Ferragamos that have been half soled. Uppers still in good shape. And I didn't mean to start a shit storm either. We're cool. I get what you are saying about the choices you've made for yourself. You may well be correct that in the long run you can save a few bucks by avoiding a recraft. Just wish there was some way to quantify this debate.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  3. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    dream on, dream on
     
  4. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    another great post from your side. much appreciated.
     
  5. hendrix

    hendrix Senior member

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    That half resole looked fine to me. Actually looked like quite a nice job.

    I'm not sure if it is functionally inferior. Perhaps someone else could weigh in.

    I would've liked to see a close channeled sole...
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
  6. Gdot

    Gdot Senior member

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    Yeah - it was a well done half soling.

    It just creeps me out though - I'm not saying it's rational - btw.
     
  7. hendrix

    hendrix Senior member

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    From the same blog:

     
  8. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    brownnosing at it's best. that's quite normal in their position, imo.
     
  9. chogall

    chogall Senior member

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    Are you suggesting all sorts of gemming failure can be fixed without the original last?
     
  10. fritzl

    fritzl Senior member

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    i suggest to buy good shoes, nothing else.
     
  11. Xenon

    Xenon Senior member

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    The top photo, that is totally gemming failure unrelated to the disassembly. Just look at that canvas, it is now brown and green and curled on itself in the failed areas, not white or freshly shredded/torn. This gemming failure probably started a few years ago per the condition that canvas is in.

    The hand welt photos show a loose stitching but not failure. Certainly sub standard or not what i would accept.

    Quite simply gemming is a factory solution to time/cost cutting and one that is certainly acceptable in mid range $500 shoes. At the $1000 range it is highly questionable to my values. Such a shoe would have to be god damn sublime in looks for me to even remotely consider. I am talking super model sublime.

    edit: oops it seems the wrong photo is quoted
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
    1 person likes this.
  12. Stirling

    Stirling Senior member

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    The bit in bold actually applies to you and I'm sure that lots of posters in this thread would agree.

    Which FACTS are you stating? You continue to make noob assumptions, and enforce your poorly informed opinions as if they are some kind of fact.

    Just because you have two pairs of GG and owned a pair of EG once in your life, doesn't make you an authority on shoes. Nor does it confer any real knowledge in terms of construction unless you took your shoes apart and had somebody knowledgeable to explain all the differences. Even if this was the case, you would be basing your opinions on a very limited sample, making generalisations off the back of limited experience and very little knowledge is never credible imo.

    For example tell me how do you profess to know that the linings used in C&J benchgrade are inferior to EG??? Elaborate in what way are they inferior?

    I don't believe you know, but instead are just making this assumption based on the price of the goods. And that is what this thread is actually about, it's not about bespoke vs rtw per se, it's about the difference in quality if any between rtw shoes at the price point in question.
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. Gdot

    Gdot Senior member

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    First, about the bit in bold. You will find that I give back what is given. If you address me with snark you will get it back. If you address me with respect you will get it back.

    Now back to the detailed conversation.

    1.) Sctually you have no idea of the investigations I've done. So you can just let those assertions go - because you simply have no basis on which to comment.

    2.) I've never professed to be an expert - I've professed to point out the differences in qualityof materials and care of craftsmenship that are apparent by observation.

    3.) You apparenlty equate quality with internal construction. That is fine, I get it. Personally I could care less about internal construction unless it affects the end user experience of the shoe. Does it make the shoe less durable in practical terms, less comfortable, etc. etc. I am perfectly well aware that all of the commercially made Northampton shoes (short of bespoke) use various quantities of synthetic components internally. Personally I could give a flip.

    4.) Regarding linings: look inside a C&J benchgrade shoe then look inside a G&G or EG shoe - you will note the following: Benchgrade:lining not brought fully to edge of tongue/GG and EG:carefully fitted and stitched, Benchgrade:lining not precisely aligned with top of collar/GG and EG very precise, Benchgrade:stitching much more widely spaced than GG and EG, Benchgrade:loose threads, stop/start locations of stitching sloppy, GG and EG typically impeccible, Benchgrade leather thickness/hand slightly thinner than GG/EG, Benchgrade:undyed/GG,EG:dyed to match upper.

    5.) You imply that perhaps this discussion is about the cost/value relationship between these differences in qualities. I have specifically attempted NOT to discuss this - as the value of something is subjective. I have attempted to keep this conversation to the physical facts of the differences between the two price points of shoes. As that is the OP's question. I have freely admitted over and over and over again that I completely acknowledge that the internal making is pretty darned similar between the two. The increases in 'quality' are almost all in the materials and the care/craftsmenship of the visible aspects of the end product. Do you have any quibble with this statement?
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
  14. Fraiche

    Fraiche Senior member

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    This is the type of thread that makes me love this forum. Thanks for enlightening the rest of us with your conversation, gents.
     
  15. rikod

    rikod Senior member

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    Wonder why, to me it's been tedious, confusing, filled with long and difficult to read posts, and in 27 pages nobody have come close to answer the real OP question imo.
     
  16. grendel

    grendel Senior member

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    I thought the answer we came to was "Vass are probably better made than JL or EG and half the price"?

    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  17. Raindrop

    Raindrop Senior member

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    I think you should look at the baseline quality you want, then go for value / marginal gains from there.

    I will say though, shoes complete an outfit.
     
  18. TKDKid

    TKDKid Senior member

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    A blog promoting bespoke handmade shoes has reason to say good things about a RTW shoe manufacturer because...? It was just a factory visit that anyone can go on, so it's not like they had to post about it.


    Oh, I'm perfectly happy to accept that handwelting is better than Goodyear welting. All I was trying to say was that, just as there are people who do not recognise any differences in quality in factory-made shoes, there are also people (and bespoke shoemakers at that) who do. Whether it's because the latter can see things that we can't, or because their idea of quality is different, I don't know, but I hope we can be open-minded about this.
     
  19. rikod

    rikod Senior member

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    Well I don't know or care about construction but that is probably true, not only that but also just as nice leather and lasts, as well C&J handgrade, super nice leather and lasts at prices far from 1K, (and yes I'm stupid enough to own 1k+ shoes, the only ones that squeek like crazy btw) so the real answer is none plain and simple imo except for rare or exotic leathers and of course bespoke.
     
  20. NORE

    NORE Senior member

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    I could be wrong here but you guys that are humoring Hendrix should ask how many pairs of high quality shoes he owns. Just saying.
     

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