Advantages of a $1000 Pair of Shoes

[dddrees]

Oh come now - a man knows when shoes have fallen apart and can't be resoled again. Or if his shoes come back from a resole with a somehow compromised fit. It never happened to me that the uppers outlasted the ability to have the shoes resoled. And I've never had a shoe become 'different' after a resole. And by the way I don't believe I said that I owned ONLY Blake stitched shoes.
I completely understand the function of gemming, I've read, discussed, debated, researched. Your constant insistence that a perfectly intelligent person is incapable of learning something via investigation is decidedly unflattering and paints you in a not so intelligent light.

Please state plainly the fact that I've been given and cannot accept. I fail to see what that would be. Perhaps I am indeed as ignorant as you imply. Although i quite seriously doubt it.

I know I'm new at this but it doesn't mean I'm incapable of learning. I also would like to hear more as well. Please share if you don't mind.

 

[KObalto]

I'm concerned about DWF. Where is he for this thread? Highly opinionated on these topics, highly informed, and highly skilled. He is missed.

 

[hendrix]



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

I agree with you if we are talking a plain black cap toe. VERY few people would notice the difference. As the only visible differences are minimal. Mostly they would be in the shape and contouring of the last. And If one choses lasts very conservatively about the only visible difference would be the tightness of the waist and perhaps the shaping/finishing of the sole edging. And these subtle difference would indeed not be noticible to anyone but the wearer.
I'm am certainly not saying that one should buy attention grabbing shoes as a matter of course.

What I am saying is that there are perfectly valid reasons to do so and perfectly valid reasons to spend 1k on a pair of shoes. Those reasons being something other than the raw functionality/length of wear.

Of course there are perfectly valid reasons. The valid reason is that you like the design.

You as an architect of all people should understand this.

What you're failing to understand is that you see to think that all people who see your extended toe chisel shoes will like them as much as you.

Unless, of course, you can show me a $500 pair of shoes that looks like this.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Or this after 20 wearings or so:

There are no substitutes for quality craftsmenship and materials and creative design.
Whether or not you 'need' these things is indeed a question.

Shoes that look like that look ******* awful to me and I could find you $300 shoes that look better than that to me.

CREATIVE DESIGN! THERE. THAT IS IT.

That is a perfectly valid reason to buy your shoes but stop spreading your ignorance that it's anything other than that.

I'm good with that - I would never suppose that everyone likes what I like.
Here are the Drummonds in both colors that I own - and I do agree with you that these are a pretty good substitute for a really fine pair of English shoes. They do however, exceed the price point under discussion ($500) by a good 20%.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

From 6 feet away they look pretty expensive. Only someone who is really paying attention would notice that the waist is not as tight, nor as lifted, that the sole edging is less detailed, and that the leather simply isn't up to G&G quality. These are all very slight differences. Although, even with these very minor differences noted the overall effect is still somehow 'not quite' up to a G&G, is it?
Oh, and I chose the orange sock photo just for you!

1. So the G&G fit your foot better........I wasn't aware everyone has the same pair of feet as you.

2. SOLE EDGING IS DESIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can get different sole edging details AT ALL PRICE POINTS....

Last shape, high and narrow waists, sole shaping and edging, and quality of materials are gimmicks?
Please explain. I surely must have misunderstood as all of those features are a function of craftsmenship/quality.
Sure you may not prefer to have a high and tight waist on your shoes, that's fine for you and your foot. But for those of us with high arches and narrow feet they are pretty swell. And there can be no denying that these features are among the many features of quality and craftsmenship.

wtf. They are a design feature. You may like them, you may not. It's personal.

Here's the best photos I could find to do a fair comparison of plain black cap toes.
Shoe one - Retails in the US for about $600.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Shoe two - Retails in the US for about $1200.

Shoe three - Retails in the US for about $1200

Shoe two and three will have more sole durability. And perhaps will resist creasing quite as much as shoe one. But otherwise will perform pretty similarly in terms of durability.
Even considering the fact that C&J benchgrades rarely come out of the box looking quite as perfect as in these pictures and that EGs and G&Gs are always are perfect, would I pay this premium? Absolutely not.

What?

So you like these design details but don't think it's worth it on a black cap toe? Is this because, like I said before, it doesn't draw as much attention to itself?

Here is an amazing shoe. Henry Maxwell bespoke:

completely seperate from the construction, what makes this shoe special is the design. RJMan called it "fetishistically conservative", and I would agree. Does that make the shoe something that everyone would like? no. It is the antithesis of the shoes you've shown.

Your G&Gs are great if you like them, but please understand that the premium you seem so keen to justify is for design. And this is entirely subjective. Don't tell me that a beveled welt makes something more special because it's just not true. It depends on the shoe and the person.

As for the thread you mention it actually completely illustrates my point. In that nobody, including the many bespoke shoe experts on SF, was able to indentify a single bespoke maker in my region that could produce a quality bespoke dress shoe for anything remotely near $1000 dollars. Yes, many breezed through and implied that I surely was ignorant because I hadn't scared anyone up. But nobody coughed up any makers that were accessible to me without adding on thousands of dollars in travel costs. Reread the thread - you'll not find a single valid resource for someone living in the SE US.

"Guys, I'm going to start a thread where everyone does all my research for me and then I'm going to say that I won the argument because noone told me an answer I should be trying to find myself".

**** man. I live in New Zealand. How am I going to tell you where to buy your shoes?

Ok accept you did not intend to offend and likewise here.

But back to the thread, the point is in terms of shoes a higher price doesn't always correlate to greater attention to detail or even uniqueness. And where it does is the greater attention to detail or uniqueness a mark of quality? or is it a mark of design.The two don't always go hand in hand.

Exactly this. Read. Reread.

until you actually comprehend.

Perhaps you would be so kind as to quantify the benefits of a fully bespoke shoe in as much detail? Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. And before you start, I'll give you hand welted as a benefit. Even though the debate rages on as to whether or not there is any quantifiable advantage, I'll concede in advance that this feature is superior. Next you will talk about fit, this is again, a feature for many that matters a great deal. As a matter of fact most bespoke makers will tell you that the majority of their customers come to be bespoke customers out of specific and unusual fit issues that make RTW shoes difficult for the customer to wear.

Why are you making this about bespoke?

This thread is about why people buy $1000 shoes over slightly less expensive shoes.

I am only disturbed by derogatory terms such as 'fan boy' and 'igent' as they are just that, insulting and derogatory, and clearly intended as such.
As to that which is right up my street you may well be correct, if I make partner this year or next, as is quite likely, fully bespoke shoes will be well within my reach. But I'm not there just quite yet. Part of my apparent frustration is probably a result of this very place that i am in my career, just on the cusp of making what I would term 'serious money'. Do bear in mind that the creative professions are not known for their high rate of pay. The world at large is just as loath to pay architects for high craft as they are to pay shoemakers. Moreso as a matter of fact - as the costs are much higher.
But shall we get back to the substance? Please? What is quantifiably superior in a fully bespoke shoe that makes you bespoke guys any less 'fan boys' than us RTW guys? Aside from custom fit for those who need it and hand welting that is?

just wait until hendrix get's up in Oz....

New Zealand bro. I should be offended!

Look at the context, before posting general wisdom.

Self proclaimed shoe guy, says he works in a very rarified environment, multi-million pound deals, $500 dollar shoes can't hold their own, image is everything blah, blah, blah.  

pretty much....what a load of bollocks.

Actually one of intellgence can learn at any age. Perhaps you could enlighten us heathens?
I note that i continuously ask for facts and get nothing but vague insinuation in reply.

There is no ******* debate here.

Durability is not the same thing as quality.

whether gemmed shoes last as long or not I don't know or care.

Well actually again you are mistaken as to my knowledge. I don't currently own a pair of EGs. I briefly owned a pair. And I tried on about a half dozen pairs the last time I was in London, and found them not aesthetcially to my liking nor did I particularly like the fit. As the narrower lasts from G&G seems to work better for my foot.
In addition, I also have done some research, including reading dissections of many of the factory made shoes, including EG specifically. I am well aware of their synthetic components. Their basic method of construction etc. etc. Further I have corresponded with the owner's of G&G and recieved frank and honest information as to what is used within their shoes. Frankly it doesn't bother me a bit to spend $1000 less and get a shoe with a few synthetic innards and a gemmed welt.
I don't wish to undermine your viewpoint. If only you would quantify it. But yet again - you avoid, avoid, avoid, quantifying.
\.

Is this the question you're asking:
"Hey guys, why are you not quantifying a quality?"
?




Gdot: Why do you try to justify your purchases by arguing that you need them for your work? Why can't you just say that you like them? Why do you have to enforce your opinions about design upon everyone else? especially the noobs. It's just irresponsible.

 

[fritzl]



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Of course there are perfectly valid reasons. The valid reason is that you like the design.
You as an architect of all people should understand this.
What you're failing to understand is that you see to think that all people who see your extended toe chisel shoes will like them as much as you.
Shoes that look like that look ******* awful to me and I could find you $300 shoes that look better than that to me.
CREATIVE DESIGN! THERE. THAT IS IT.
That is a perfectly valid reason to buy your shoes but stop spreading your ignorance that it's anything other than that.
1. So the G&G fit your foot better........I wasn't aware everyone has the same pair of feet as you.
2. SOLE EDGING IS DESIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You can get different sole edging details AT ALL PRICE POINTS....
wtf.
What?
So you like these design details but don't think it's worth it on a black cap toe? Is this because, like I said before, it doesn't draw as much attention to itself?
Here is an amazing shoe. Henry Maxwell bespoke.

completely seperate from the construction, what makes this shoe special is the design. RJMan called it "fetishistically conservative", and I would agree. Does that make the shoe something that everyone would like? no. It is the antithesis of the shoes you've shown.
Your G&Gs are great if you like them, but please understand that the premium you seem so keen to justify is for design
. And this is entirely subjective.
"Guys, I'm going to start a thread where everyone does all my research for me and then I'm going to say that I won the argument because noone told me an answer I should be trying to find myself".
**** man. I live in New Zealand. How am I going to tell you where to buy your shoes?
Exactly this. Read. Reread.
until you actually comprehend.
Why are you making this about bespoke?
This thread is about whether a $1000 pair of shoes is worth it over say a $500 pair.
New Zealand bro. I should be offended!
pretty much....what a load of bollocks.
There is no ******* debate here.
Durability is not the same thing as quality.
whether gemmed shoes last as long or not I don't know or care.
Is this the question you're asking:
"Hey guys, why are you not quantifying a quality?"
?

Gdot: Why do you try to justify your purchases by arguing that you need them for your work? Why can't you just say that you like them? Why do you have to enforce your opinions about design upon everyone else? especially the noobs. It's just irresponsible.

great post and a good summary, why "we" think gdot has a "problem". not sure why this other guy is supporting this bs. anyway.

pls take my appologize for mixing up kiwi with Oz. cheers

 

[dddrees]

great post and a good summary, why "we" think gdot has a "problem". not sure why this other guy is supporting this bs. anyway.
pls take my appologize for mixing up kiwi with Oz. cheers

Not that I feel I'm owned anything, but I was looking for a little more substance than the usual short dismissive comments. I'm sure some of this is located here somewhere, and I have done some looking. But going through it all can be a real daunting task. Seemed like this thread would be a great place to look for some of those answers.

 

[MasterplayerC]

As someone with 2 pairs of EGs (purchased from Leffot), I can honestly say that females swoon at least 50% more when I wear them than when I wear my AEs.

 

[Gdot]



Not that I feel I'm owned anything, but I was looking for a little more substance than usual short dismissive comments. I'm sure some of this is located here somewhere, and I have done some looking. But  going through it all can be a real daunting task. Seemed like this thread would be a great place to look for some of those answers.

This pretty much sums up logical a response to Hendrix posts.

What a load of accusatory twaddle. The man more or less has accused me of lying about my career and somehow thinks that he will be influential to my thinking. Obviously not a man of success or influence as of yet.

And further - I never said nor meant to imply that this made me any sort of shoe expert. All I was stating was that there are indeed plenty of places in the world where a basic $500 benchgrade shoe is going to look, well, just that, basic.


Hendrix,

You did say some things that I can agree with, completely.

Quality does not directly equate to durability or longevity. Agreed.

This actually takes me back to the original premise more or less.

Within the same price point, if higher quality craftsmenship does not result in a more durable shoe, nor a more aesthetically pleasing one, nor a substantially better fitting one, then what, pray tell, is the actuall advantage of the fully handmade shoe that warrants all of your camp's 'fan boy' love. It appears to me to be no less emotionally or preferentially based than my personal love of aesthetics. And thus just as irrational.

The only differences between our two camps seems to be that most RTW buyers around here have the common courtesy not to refer to you as a 'Fan Boy' nor a 'Handmade Whore'.

 

[yywwyy]

I judge a man by his shoes. I believe I can often tell between the $1000+ shoes and $500 shoes. I may be delusional.

 

[hendrix]



Within the same price point, if higher quality craftsmenship does not result in a more durable shoe, nor a more aesthetically pleasing one, nor a substantially better fitting one, then what, pray tell, is the actual advantage of the fully handmade shoe that warrants all of your camp's 'fan boy' love.

This is not the discussion at hand, is it?

The question is, why do people buy the $1000 shoe over the slightly less expensive shoe?

The answer is what Stirling said:
But back to the thread, the point is in terms of shoes a higher price doesn't always correlate to greater attention to detail or even uniqueness. And where it does is the greater attention to detail or uniqueness a mark of quality? or is it a mark of design.The two don't always go hand in hand.

There is nothing wrong with buying for design. It is, and should be, the main reason we buy clothing and footwear.

The only differences between our two camps seems to be that most RTW buyers around here have the common courtesy not to refer to you as a 'Fan Boy' nor a 'Handmade Whore'.

When did I say anything like this? I own RTW shoes and they're great!

I'd just like for you to stop spreading erroneous justification. it's bad for the forum.

All I was stating was that there are indeed plenty of places in the world where a basic $500 benchgrade shoe is going to look, well, just that, basic.

Why should a guy who prefers non-beveled welts, round toe lasts, and conservative styling be told that his shoes are anything less special that sleek chisel toes?

None of these design elements have anything to do with the price and yet you continue to argue that this makes them look less "basic" than other shoes.

It's just incorrect. That's why I showed you those Henry Maxwell's. I can post tons of pictures of wonderful, conservatively styled shoes if you'd like?

 

[rikod]



Aside from custom fees (~$50 I presume?), the other problem is if they screw up the order, which did happen according to the Vass thread...

Wow this thread is going fast, wanted to answer this and went back several pages. Customs fees if they make the unfortunate mistake of including the original invoice in a Fedex shipment could be up to $300 or more, of course this doesn't have to happen, just specify to send them as sample or Hungarian post. I also forgot that the other condition to get them for $500 or less is to live outside Europe and not be charged with VAT.

a proxy cannot help when the order is screwd, can they, respectively, will they?

Kolecko won't send the order if they screw up and wil send them back to Vass to be fixed.

 

[A Canuker]

I bought two pairs of JL's during my last trip to England in July and, IMO, a pair of shoes to this level only makes one feel better. Are they so above and beyond what I already had, not really but they make me feel like a million dollars so in that sense they are worth the price paid. Would I get them all the time? Yes as now that I have joined this club I can't see stepping back down, this was my big worry as they are freaking costly. Will they last longer, I don't know but given that by the time you are buying these shoes you should have a collection such that you are only wearing a pair once a week at best and more often once every two/three hence they will last a life time.

The biggest issue is that the next time I buy some more I now have all these other options that I never bothered looking at and now I have to start the whole process of learning lasts and such all over again, hard to to in the middle of Canada where nothing is sold.

 

[dddrees]

I bought two pairs of JL's during my last trip to England in July and, IMO, a pair of shoes to this level only makes one feel better. Are they so above and beyond what I already had, not really but they make me feel like a million dollars so in that sense they are worth the price paid. Would I get them all the time? Yes as now that I have joined this club I can't see stepping back down, this was my big worry as they are freaking costly. Will they last longer, I don't know but given that by the time you are buying these shoes you should have a collection such that you are only wearing a pair once a week at best and more often once every two/three hence they will last a life time.
The biggest issue is that the next time I buy some more I now have all these other options that I never bothered looking at and now I have to start the whole process of learning lasts and such all over again, hard to to in the middle of Canada where nothing is sold.

Congratulations on your recent acquisitions, if you get a chance I would love to see the ones you chose.

 

[Gdot]



This is not the discussion at hand, is it?
The question is, why do people buy the $1000 shoe over the slightly less expensive shoe?
The answer is what Stirling said:

Well perhaps for some. But for me, the reason is a combination of obvious quality differences and aesthetics. I suffer from no delusions that the basic internal construction of a G&G is in anything but barely superior to a typical benchgrade shoe.

But back to the thread, the point is in terms of shoes a higher price doesn't always correlate to greater attention to detail or even uniqueness. And where it does is the greater attention to detail or uniqueness a mark of quality? or is it a mark of design.The two don't always go hand in hand.

Agreed that higher price doesn't always contribute anything of value. That is obvious to all. But it seems to me that you are attempting to imply that more attention and time devoted to all of the little details of construction/finishing does not equate to any increase in quality? Surely that is not what you are implying. Please elaborate.

There is nothing wrong with buying for design. It is, and should be, the main reason we buy clothing and footwear.
When did I say anything like this? I own RTW shoes and they're great!

Cool that we agree. Although i note that in the statement just above this one you just implied that design was not a mark of quality.

I'd just like for you to stop spreading erroneous justification. it's bad for the forum.

Again - what erroneous justification - be specific. I clearly stated my purposes which were intangible and the quantifiably pointed out various quality and craftsmenship differences between the two basic quality of shoes. If you take issue with any specifics in my information please DO let me know. What they are.

Why should a guy who prefers non-beveled welts, round toe lasts, and conservative styling be told that his shoes are anything less special that sleek chisel toes?

I don't believe I ever said or implied that. I would note however, that said features you mention are indeed available at lower price points and thus one who is looking for these features could well fullfill their needs with a $500.00 shoe. But if one wishes to have higher quality materials, beveled welts, extreme lasts and sleek chisled toes one does not have so many options in the $500 category. This is EXACTLY my point. That if you desire to own a shoe that in any way approaches the effect/styling of a full on bespoke English shoe the upper end RTW are essentially the only credible substitute at the $1200 price point.


None of these design elements have anything to do with the price and yet you continue to argue that this makes them look less "basic" than other shoes.
It's just incorrect. That's why I showed you those Henry Maxwell's. I can post tons of pictures of wonderful, conservatively styled shoes if you'd like?

You are absolutely mistaken. The design elements have plenty to do with the costs. You must pay the artistic sorts for their talent, time and inspiration, for the shaping of the lasts and the making of the patterns. Your assertion that there is NO MONETARY VALUE in design and aesthetics is exactly where we completely disagree. As to whether or not these details make a shoe look more or less 'special' even a grade schooler can see that most upper end ready to wear handgrade shoes are of higher quality than a benchgrade.

I would be delighted to see your images of beautifully crafted, conservatively styled shoes from Henry Maxwell. As I very much appreciate them - you're presumption that I wouldn't is indicative of your preconceived ideas.
HOWEVER, I do note that his shoes start at about $5000 US. Hardly seems pertinent to this conversation does it? Perhaps you should post those images where they belong - on a bespoke shoe thread, no?

 

[JubeiSpiegel]

I tire of this thread, can we end it now?

 

[fritzl]



Kolecko won't send the order if they screw up and wil send them back to Vass to be fixed.

double postage. how clever...