Advantage of business casual: More options for suits?

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by acidicboy

this is really surprising specially because it involves members of the legal profession, whom i always believed should always be in proper decorum (so you wont be guarded once they stab you in the back! haha

) anyway, if i were in need of a alwyer, and i step in to an office where they counsel is dressed in casual wear, the first phrase that would enter my mind is "ambulance chaser".
FWIW, "ambulance chasers" and other plaintiff-side lawyers that represent a relatively unsophisticated clientele (clearly this is a very broad generalization, but one based in anecdotal experience) tend to overdress (at least in terms of flamboyance, labels, etc.) rather than underdress. The idea, as I understand it, is that if the clients know you drive a Jaguar and wear an Armani suit, they're going to read those facts as signs that you're sucessful and are more likely to get them some money.
I usually wear a suit to the office, although not always. But if there's even a possibility that I may be meeting with a client, I wear a suit to show respect for the responsibility they are entrusting to me. There are, however, exceptions. For example, I have a corporate client in Silicon Valley where there's a very "hip" anti-suit ethos, and the prevailing dress code is khaki's and polo shirts. When I attend meetings there I don't wear a suit (the first couple times I went up there I was specifically told not to "bother" to bring a suit), but I generally will wear nice trousers and shoes, a button-down shirt, and a sports coat or blazer so as to convey respect and professionalism without overdressing to the extent of making anyone uncomfortable.

 

[JBZ]

I thought Jose was only in the U.S. to get his LLM and would then be going back to his former firm. Jose - are you thinking of staying, or is this more of a hypothetical query?

Also, I would agree with the general advice that you should learn the general culture of your firm before you decide how you're going to dress (to the extent "fitting in" matters to you). I will say that, having worked in two business casual environments, people who choose to dress casually do so. They don't experiment with different kinds of "less traditional" suits. Those who choose to continue to wear a suit generally dress fairly conservatively and wear a tie.

Frankly, if you want to continue to wear a suit, I think that's fine. On the other hand, I have no idea why you'd simultaneously say you're embracing the idea of business casual, but continue to wear a suit. If you want to dress casually, dress casually.

 

[lawyerdad]

To follow up on what JBZ (and likely others) said: dressing "casual" and dressing flamboyantly are not the same thing, and may convey very different impressions about the wearer.

 

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

Probably so. But really, the idea that it's an employment "perk" is pretty laughable to me. Others may disagree, but given the scale of challenges and rewards associated with working at a large New York law firm, the notion that the dress code should be an important consideration seems ludicrous. There is a firm here in Los Angeles used to use (and may still use - I'm a bit outside the target demongraphic for their recruiting efforts these days) the fact that it had no dress code - ie., you could show up in ripped shorts and a mesh t-shirt if you wanted - as a major selling point in recruiting new associates. The trade-off was that people were expected to bill ungodly hours, even by the standards of large law firms. Now, as then, the appeal of being "allowed" to wear sweatpants and flip-flops while slaving away in the office at 2:00 a.m. escapes me.

My favorite types of perks in big law firms go something like this:

- Interviewer (giving a prospective associate a tour): "...and this is our cafeteria. It stays open every night until 3 a.m. On the next floor, you'll see our shower rooms, which can be used at any time."

- Prospective associate: "Oh, really? That's great." (and then, after a beat, thinking to him/herself - "Wait. What?").

 

[odoreater]

I love how they list BlackBerrys as perks. "Here you go, here's a little gizmo for you to play around with the first day you get it and that we can later use to hunt you down no matter where you go." These things are amazing, you can open and read an entire document that's sent as a word attachment on it.

 

[lawyerdad]

Originally Posted by odoreater

I love how they list BlackBerrys as perks. "Here you go, here's a little gizmo for you to play around with the first day you get it and that we can later use to hunt you down no matter where you go." These things are amazing, you can open and read an entire document that's sent as a word attachment on it.
I've refused to get one. To me, part of being a man in full is maintaining the ability to disappear into the bathroom with the sports page when you feel like it without being "reachable" by the entire world.

 

[chorse123]

Unfortunatley business casual is just a different uniform, and not a license to unleash one's sartorial whimsy.

 

[JBZ]

Originally Posted by lawyerdad

I've refused to get one. To me, part of being a man in full is maintaining the ability to disappear into the bathroom with the sports page when you feel like it without being "reachable" by the entire world.

+1000

 

[Master Shake]

Originally Posted by JBZ

My favorite types of perks in big law firms go something like this:

- Interviewer (giving a prospective associate a tour): "...and this is our cafeteria. It stays open every night until 3 a.m. On the next floor, you'll see our shower rooms, which can be used at any time."

- Prospective associate: "Oh, really? That's great." (and then, after a beat, thinking to him/herself - "Wait. What?").
While being given the cafeteria tour at a LARGE firm with offices overlooking Times Square (that should be enough clues), I was told, "Oh, and you have a great view of Times Square from here. It's really great on New Year's, you can see the ball drop."

 

[Patrick Bateman]

I don't think that made it into the Skadden brochure.

 

[Mentos]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I don't think that made it into the Skadden brochure.

I hear the cafeteria is closed on Christmas, surprisingly enough. Nothing to eat for eight blocks, as the story goes.

Blackberries are brilliant for business trips and leaving the office early. For junior associates accustomed to waiting around the office for partner approval on something, a blackberry is also great. But if you were a slave to fire drills before, you'll be even more of a slave after. The trick is simply to not worry about providing 24 hour service. Easier said than done, but not impossible, even for a first year. Any partner who expects an email reply at 11pm should be avoided, anyway.

But then my firm doesn't require blackberries, which gives us some collective breathing room.

 

[Mentos]

Originally Posted by Mentos

I hear the cafeteria is closed on Christmas, surprisingly enough. Nothing to eat for eight blocks, as the story goes.

Blackberries are brilliant for business trips and leaving the office early. For junior associates accustomed to waiting around the office for partner approval on something, a blackberry is also great. But if you were a slave to fire drills before, you'll be even more of a slave after. The trick is simply to not worry about providing 24 hour service. Easier said than done, but not impossible, even for a first year. Any partner who expects an email reply at 11pm should be avoided, anyway.

But then my firm doesn't require blackberries, which gives us some collective breathing room.

Hot damn, I'm a senior member now!

 

[dirk diggler]

Originally Posted by Mentos

I hear the cafeteria is closed on Christmas, surprisingly enough. Nothing to eat for eight blocks, as the story goes.

Blackberries are brilliant for business trips and leaving the office early. For junior associates accustomed to waiting around the office for partner approval on something, a blackberry is also great. But if you were a slave to fire drills before, you'll be even more of a slave after. The trick is simply to not worry about providing 24 hour service. Easier said than done, but not impossible, even for a first year. Any partner who expects an email reply at 11pm should be avoided, anyway.

But then my firm doesn't require blackberries, which gives us some collective breathing room.

I had a vice president call me Monday @ 8 am while I was in the car and had just dropped my kid off at day care:

Him: "Did you get my email last night" "

Me: "Email? What time did you send it?"

Him: "About Midnight"

Me: "Oh. No, I don't get paid enough to check email after 9 pm. Was it urgent?"

Him: "Ummm. I guess not."

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Mentos

I hear the cafeteria is closed on Christmas, surprisingly enough. Nothing to eat for eight blocks, as the story goes.

Maybe Cravath is still open. that's within range...

 

[Mentos]

Originally Posted by Mentos

I hear the cafeteria is closed on Christmas, surprisingly enough. Nothing to eat for eight blocks, as the story goes.


For those who have never seen this gem. Unclear whether he was caz or bizcaz while rocking Skadden on x-mas. Whether or not it's real, it reflects a certain dysfunctionality that is a delight to behold.

---------------
http://www.whostolethetarts.com/archives/000405.html

These emails are currently being forwarded around -- I can't vouch for their accuracy, but they did contain a whole lot of confidentiality notices that I ignored entirely. I rearranged the email so you can read it straight through (instead of from the bottom up).

>>>Lena XXX 02/09/04 03:37PM >>>
Hi Xxxxxxxx,

As per the expense coordinator, Debra ---, the meals on 12/25/03 for $45.00 and the meal on 01/19/04 for $43.00 were not within the 10 block radius. Did you have these meals delivered to the office? If the meals were not delivered they will be reduced from your expense total. Please advise. Thank you and have a great day.

Lena XXX
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP
White Plains Office
(Phone Number)

>>>02/09/04 03:55PM >>>
Lena,

I believe that the January 19th meal was either delivered or picked up and brought into the office by me. Please let me know what restaurant that was, and I can confirm. If I am the one that picked it up and brought it in, THEN CONSIDER ME THE DELIVERY PERSON WHO DELIVERED IT TO THE OFFICE.

The meal on December 25th was god damn Christmas Day when I was stuck here, couldn't find a ******* restaurant in Times Square that (i) delivered, or (ii) had less than a 2-1/2 hour wait, and consequently was forced to venture outside the precious "10 block radius" to avoid starvation. Given the temperature that day and my belief that time was of the essence in order to get my work done, I did not, of course, walk ten blocks north of here, then scour every restaurant within your "zone" in order to find the one in which I could eat without losing substantial time. In lieu thereof, I went to a restaurant "outside your zone" that I knew to be open, had a meal and then returned.

Please advise me accordingly. In the absence of reimbursement for my meal on December 25th, I would appreciate your office having someone available this upcoming Christmas Day so that when I am stuck here, I will have someone to call for advance approval on a meal.

Kind regards,

-Xxxxxxxx


>>>Lena XXX 02/09/04 04:08PM >>>
Hi Xxxxxxxx,

As per my supervisor, Nancy ???, we will reimburse you for the $43.00, but not the $45.00 at Houlihan's. It is out of the area. Sorry for the inconvenience. Have a great day.

Lena XXX
Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP
White Plains Office
(Phone Number)


>>>02/09/04 04:14PM >>>
Lena,

I appreciate your kind words. I am pleased to know that just when I think life has hit rock bottom, there is someone in White Plains to make it that much worse.

Kind regards,

-Xxxxxxxx


From: [email protected]
To:
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 10:37 AM
Subject: Fwd: Re: Expense report # 30238


David,

This is the kind of e-mail you want to avoid in order to not "get into trouble" at Skadden. I was actually told that if I had gotten on the phone and yelled this at the woman, then I wouldn't have gotten into trouble. My response was that actually, I drafted the e-mail, proofread it and then cc'd this woman's boss. Not good. . . my conduct is being "monitored."

-Xxxxxxxx