A&S

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Manton, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    41,574
    Likes Received:
    2,814
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    Even if not explicit, let's be honest and admit that this board has a strong bias towards drape, natural shoulders and napolitan tailoring. There are dissidents, but the center of gravity definitely is there.

    Honestly, I agree. But that's only because objectively it's the best style.
     


  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,840
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    As said above, it's implied.
    Even if you think so, don't you think it would be less inflammatory of you to treat the implication as an implication, not as an arrogant, ignorant assertion of fact?
    Even if not explicit, let's be honest and admit that this board has a strong bias towards drape, natural shoulders and napolitan tailoring. There are dissidents, but the center of gravity definitely is there.
    Sure, there is a strong preference on the forum, but I'm not sure it rises to a level disproportionate with what's popular in high-end suiting at large. What suit at Saks or Bergdorf doesn't show some trace of "soft tailoring" influence? How many draw directly from Neapolitan styling cues? The whole high-end market has shifted toward soft over hard. Hell, Chan is doing spalla camicia, and their customer base is pretty damned broad. That should tell you something. Anyway, there's a difference between a thing being popular and people claiming it is absolutely the best. Remember how annoying FNB was? He wouldn't have been nearly so irritating if he didn't keep posting responses to what he imagined everyone else to be implying.
    What the hell, I'll say it.
    Noooooo! [​IMG]
     


  3. gdl203

    gdl203 Affiliate Vendor Dubiously Honored Affiliate Vendor

    Messages:
    36,830
    Likes Received:
    17,366
    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2005
    Location:
    New York
    Honestly, I agree. But that's only because objectively it's the best style.

    I know that's what you think - and that's why you're such a strong advocate of the style. There's nothing wrong in assuming the role of a strong advocate though.

    I am in that camp too although I don't particularly like some of the stuff I see (particularly some Rubinacci) with ballooning chests and large upper sleeves. I don't get the style when it becomes too caricatural but I like it very much when it's more subtle and harmonious.
     


  4. George

    George Senior member

    Messages:
    2,832
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Location:
    Lasciate ogne speranze voi qu'intrate
    What the hell, I'll say it. Or at least I will say this. I like it best. That's not to say that I can't appreciate good examples of other styles. I will also admit that some (not too many) men don't look their best in it. But some substantial portion of the time (75%? more?) if I could see the same man in a drape coat and a lean, structured, straight-shouldered coat side-by-side, I would prefer the draped coat.
    As is your prerogative. I have no problem with this point of view even though in some ways I think the opposite.
     


  5. George

    George Senior member

    Messages:
    2,832
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Location:
    Lasciate ogne speranze voi qu'intrate
    Even if you think so, don't you think it would be less inflammatory of you to treat the implication as an implication, not as an arrogant, ignorant assertion of fact? Sure, there is a strong preference on the forum, but I'm not sure it rises to a level disproportionate with what's popular in high-end suiting at large. What suit at Saks or Bergdorf doesn't show some trace of "soft tailoring" influence? How many draw directly from Neapolitan styling cues? The whole high-end market has shifted toward soft over hard. Hell, Chan is doing spalla camicia, and their customer base is pretty damned broad. That should tell you something. Anyway, there's a difference between a thing being popular and people claiming it is absolutely the best. Remember how annoying FNB was? He wouldn't have been nearly so irritating if he didn't keep posting responses to what he imagined everyone else to be implying. Noooooo! [​IMG]
    Oh dear.
     


  6. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,840
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Oh dear.

    Oh please. I'm being perfectly reasonable and level-headed. Don't feign exasperation.
     


  7. George

    George Senior member

    Messages:
    2,832
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Location:
    Lasciate ogne speranze voi qu'intrate
    Oh please. I'm being perfectly reasonable and level-headed. Don't feign exasperation.
    I'm referring to Manton's admission and your 'Nooo...'
     


  8. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,840
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    I'm referring to Manton's admission and your 'Nooo...'

    But by quoting my whole post, you strongly implied otherwise. [​IMG]
     


  9. George

    George Senior member

    Messages:
    2,832
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Location:
    Lasciate ogne speranze voi qu'intrate
    But by quoting my whole post, you strongly implied otherwise. [​IMG]
    Ha ha, I realised, that's why I clarified it.
     


  10. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,840
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Ha ha, I realised, that's why I clarified it.
    Ah, so you mean you expect what you say (i.e. clarify) to trump what you may have previously implied? A novel concept . . .
     


  11. George

    George Senior member

    Messages:
    2,832
    Likes Received:
    8
    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2008
    Location:
    Lasciate ogne speranze voi qu'intrate
    Ah, so you mean you expect what you say (i.e. clarify) to trump what you may have previously implied? A novel concept . . .
    Were you schooled at The Thinkery?
     


  12. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    20,840
    Likes Received:
    2,053
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2007
    Were you schooled at The Thinkery?

    Actually, I taught there.
     


  13. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

    Messages:
    41,574
    Likes Received:
    2,814
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2002
    Location:
    In Hiding
    I know that's what you think - and that's why you're such a strong advocate of the style. There's nothing wrong in assuming the role of a strong advocate though.

    I am in that camp too although I don't particularly like some of the stuff I see (particularly some Rubinacci) with ballooning chests and large upper sleeves. I don't get the style when it becomes too caricatural but I like it very much when it's more subtle and harmonious.


    I like the big sleeves (no Sciamat). I agree that I see some overdone chests from time to time.
     


  14. Grammaton Cleric

    Grammaton Cleric Senior member

    Messages:
    1,813
    Likes Received:
    333
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Location:
    Hong Kong / Darien
    Err, what?

    I don't see any looseness. The chest is slightly built-up, that's the idea, to make it look like the wearer has a larger chest; if that's what you mean by 'making the wearer look heavier than he is' then that's intentional and I don't see how that's a bad thing. It certainly doesn't make the wearer look fat or overweight, in-fact that suppression does the opposite. A large chest and small waist is a desirable, masculine look (within reason, of course).

    As for the skirt, it has been exaggerated on purpose as a style choice, this isn't to my taste either but it's something that was done on purpose and isn't the reason I posted the images, nor is it caused by careless over-suppression:

    "Described as the masculine version of the trapeze line (or the flared line), the main style points are: jackets and coats featuring skirts which flare prominently at the back, waisted effects and the positioning of buttons that never extend below the waist thus stressing the flared line, which is "echoed" in the outward curve of the cuffs and trouser bottoms - the latter resembling modified bell-bottoms."

    And I think its absolutely absurd to criticise a suit with a shapely chest as being 'loose' because it builds up the chest by methods other than "A&S drape" [​IMG]


    Why is it absurd? You asked me for an explanation of why I found that coat ugly - the above was my reasoning. You can choose to agree or disagree - that's your call.

    I don't doubt the skirting was a "style choice" - just that its a very questionable one.
     


  15. Sanguis Mortuum

    Sanguis Mortuum Senior member

    Messages:
    5,059
    Likes Received:
    129
    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2006
    Location:
    Cambridge, England
    Why is it absurd? You asked me for an explanation of why I found that coat ugly - the above was my reasoning. You can choose to agree or disagree - that's your call.

    It's absurd because you talk about looseness when there is none, yet also seem to excuse looseness as long as it is 'drape'; and because almost all suits have some form of similar structure in the chest, and those in the image are not even particularly strong compared to many others such as Huntsman and the like.

    Ignoring the flared skirts the silhouettes of these suits are really no more suppressed or built up then pretty much every Chan or Steed ever posted in WAYWRN. Your welcome to your personal aesthetic opinion, but your odd sense of style seems to think 'ugly' pretty much everything that most people think looks good. You would rather have a flat unstructured chest and minimal waist suppression, making the wearer look like one long shapeless tube, instead of the high chest/waist ratio silhouette that everyone else on the planet finds desirable, and that it has been the aim of tailors for centuries to emphasise.

    I don't doubt the skirting was a "style choice" - just that its a very questionable one.

    I don't like it any more than you do, but these images are from 1958, fashions change a lot in 52 years. We could look at pictures of suits from the 70's with huge lapels and bell-bottom trousers, but that wouldn't stop us being able to discuss the fit of them without being distracted by the style choices of the time.
     


Share This Page

Styleforum is proudly sponsored by