A&S

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Manton, Oct 30, 2009.

  1. texas_jack

    texas_jack Senior member

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    Like I said once, Vox, you've put in a lot of effort to make me hate you. Isn't it nice to know you got some return on your considerable investment?

    As one totally outside of the sf drama I can say you get more than your fair share of shit but you also have a pretty big persecution complex.
     
  2. voxsartoria

    voxsartoria Goon member

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    [​IMG]

    Oops! wrong thread.


    Ooooops.


    - B
     
  3. il vecchio

    il vecchio Senior member

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    Stop playing the innocent party ...

    The last time you made comments about my dead mother and my kids for heaven sake..

    You made also comments about my nationality and my grammatical shortcomings even if you perfectly know English is my second/third language...



    .

    Really?

    When?

    Links?
     
  4. J. Maclochlainn

    J. Maclochlainn New Member

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    First off, I'd like to say I agree with 99.9% of what Mr. Despos stated. He is obviously a knowledgeable and capable Tailor. As such I will try not to reiterate anything he has stated, which might prove difficult considering the number of posts since the now infamous Anton A&S coat was presented as the pentacle of tailoring excellence offered by this renown house.

    Mr. Anton, the following are just my views from both a tailoring and personal POV and in no way constitutes an attack upon you. I mean this to be an honest and educational look into the topic at hand.

    To start, I do find it a bit odd that you post the worlds worse example to prove the naysayers wrong and sway them to the drape side. I understand your passion, and your need to not only defend this venerable house, but to help propagate not only the style but the workmanship of a house you obviously hold dear. It does seem though that you have let your better judgement slip in your doggedly blind crusade by trying to justify this particular coat, especially to the point where you have raised it upon a pedestal that all coats should aspire to.

    I beg everyone to take a long hard look again.

    [​IMG]

    What we have here is a prime example of all that has been pointed out as simply wrong in the modern A&S coats.

    Firstly, you state;

    Seriously, the chest is perfect for me. Room for a wallet, room to move, and I like the break near the scye. That's what drape is, visually.

    I'm actually having a hard time see the "Drape". As Mr. Despos points out, the chest is a bit lean. Lean to the point where your large hips over power your thin torso. In fact, when I first glanced at it, I thought the coat gave the impression of a feminine figure, which is the last thing you need given your body type of prominent hips and narrow chest. For your form Drape should look very nice and balance out your disproportion, but this particular cut and fabric does quite the opposite.

    Ahem, I was the first to point out the front balance issue.

    Sorry mate, but Ray Charles and Stevie Wonder are sitting in the back and noticed it.

    On these points, I understand that a lot of what we see are Mr. H's inputs in style, and you shouldn't have to defend the garment as your needs (save for one) was met. As for the gorge, I don't think it's so much that it's too high, but it's too small, I would love to see how the circumference of neck takes the added bulk of a shirt collar, tie and the back rise of a waist-coat (if worn). I am just as shocked as everyone else why he didn't just do a cut-away, as the methods to cut and make up the coat in in this fabric really does nothing for the form of the coat.

    My personal opinion is now over, now an educational bit from a tailoring perspective.
    Well, I thought I knew what crooked v. straight meant. Then there was an LL thread a long time ago in which Logsdail, Mahon, DeBoise and one or two other tailors argued among themselves about what it meant and could not come to a conclusion. That was sort of dismaying. I gave up on getting a precise definition after that.

    This is a tricky one, as the definition has changed slightly over the years, and when the definition was the same, we see tailors arguing about what it is exactly, well back into the Victorian era. One thing I can positively state, and is a matter of contention Sator and I have gone round and round about, is the fact that the straightness or crookedness of a fore-part is RELATIVE. There are many factors one has to look into whether a coat is cut crooked or straight. To start we must look at the build and disproportion of the client, the type of garment being made, the attitude of the client &tc.&tc., all this without taking into account the proportionate model of the system being used. Is there an absolute too crooked? Yes, I have found in my studies, both practical and theoretical that 1/2" short of 1/6th the chest is too crooked. For too straight, as I do not do drape, I imagine it is some where in the vicinity of 1/2" more than 1/10th the breast measure (this is applied between the front of scye and neck-point).

    [​IMG]

    In this example posted by Sanguis Mortuum, we see a typical T&C illustration. What Diagram 149 shows is an accurate definition of what constitutes a crooked/ straight fore-part. Diagram 150 on the other hand is a method on adjusting the shoulder for attitude and disproportion of the client. Unfortunately, over the years, diagram 150 has become the new guide in what defines crooked and straight as illustrated by Mr. Merrions draft

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    So as we see, Mr. Mahon, is closest, but still off.

    So does this mean Mr. Anton's particular coat is the victim of a crooked fore-part? In the traditional sense of the word, No. Modern sense? Possibly, but this would be a feat unto itself as what constitutes a "Drape" cut is a decidedly straight cut as to move the excess ease before the scye.

    The key problem to the coat is definitely balance, and not in the general Cognoscenti sense of the term, but in the actual tailoring meaning. Taking into account the long balance, the choice of materials, the cut producing a high neck, the uber high patch pocket, the high and over suppressed waist, sleeved pitched to far forward and tight hip has produced a garment that is not only amateurish, but should have been recognised as an all out kill that should have been destined for the cabbage bin, NOT presented as a world class garment and hight of art and skill this house can produce.

    I, frankly would be embarrassed if this garment made it out of my atelier without first meeting the sharp end of my shear first.

    This is not a personal attack either upon Mr. Anton nor A&S. These are my views for the benefit of education and should be accepted as such. I only meant to advise Mr. Anton, that before making bold statements, the garment under scrutiny should live up to expectations. Unfortunately, I believe this coat has given all the recent examples.
     
  5. il vecchio

    il vecchio Senior member

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    This thread is fascinating. It gives me a chance to completely ignore any post containing a tailoring diagram.
    I thought about posting a picture of an A and S jacket from 1990 which is in a similar material - but then I thought - nah. Nobody likes to see an old man cry.
     
  6. Panzeraxe II

    Panzeraxe II Senior member

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    ^ Nice to have you over from FNB. Glad you could make it. [​IMG]
     
  7. AndrewRogers

    AndrewRogers Senior member

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    This thread is fascinating. It gives me a chance to completely ignore any post containing a tailoring diagram.
    I thought about posting a picture of an A and S jacket from 1990 which is in a similar material - but then I thought - nah. Nobody likes to see an old man cry.


    I think I remember that one and also the flannel DB, both by Brian Russell (if memory serves?) They were exquisite.
     
  8. J. Maclochlainn

    J. Maclochlainn New Member

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    It gives me a chance to completely ignore any post containing a tailoring diagram.

    This is why no one learns, and get stuck into the never ending mantras most cognoscenti's toss out there randomly.
     
  9. ZON_JR

    ZON_JR Senior member

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    You started the discussion about me, you vapid moron.

    Well, lasbar, I don't like you either. Yet, I don't attack you in random threads or interrupt discussions to explain, again and again, why I think you're a creepy nutcase.


    Can loyal fans of the "vapid moron" lasbar and [​IMG] like myself ask for anything better than this thread? It is the greatest thread ever. It never disappoints. I'm moved to quote scripture here:

    "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not this thread, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not this thread, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not this thread, I gain nothing.

    This thread is patient, this thread is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. This thread does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.

    This thread never fails."

    Keep it up, guys...you're an inspiration for all of us.
     
  10. Holdemaron

    Holdemaron Active Member

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    dltd
     
  11. Flieger

    Flieger Senior member

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    I think we should focus more on divots.
     
  12. Panzeraxe II

    Panzeraxe II Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    flame away. (thread hijack) Didnt want to start a new thread.


    Start a new thread.

    Also, your coat is crooked.
     
  13. Manton

    Manton RINO Dubiously Honored

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    Honestly, every time I click this thread and see that pic, the coat looks great to me except for the stripes. Maybe there is too much waist, maybe not; that's a matter of taste. It's more than I am used to, that's true. I haven't decided what to do about it and won't until the fall at least.

    This reminds me of the shirt pattern-matching arguments that iammatt used to get into with everyone. I finally fully understand his point. There is a not-small cadre of people here who would prefer to wear a shirt with perfectly matched stripes even if it didn't fit or they didn't like the cut rather than wear one that did fit but had mis-aligned stripes. Sorry, I'm not in that camp. I like my coat better than the others posted in this thread with straight stripes.

    For those of you who have shown so much genuine concern for my physical form, my chest measures 40" and my hips 39". I am 6'4" and weigh 170. Not exactly voxian perhaps, but it all seems respectable to me.
     
  14. mafoofan

    mafoofan THE FOO Dubiously Honored

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    Being called a vapid moron and a creepy nutcase by somebody arguing about divot and stitches is just surreal........
    Arguing about divots and stitches is leagues more appropriate for a clothing forum than your relentless, unending character commentary. It is plain as day that you cannot help but comment about me, even when I'm not part of the discussion.
    Stop playing the innocent party ... The last time you made comments about my dead mother and my kids for heaven sake..
    You idiot. I don't know who your dead mother and children are. I made an ugly analysis of your character, based on a background I imagined, precisely to give you a dose of your own medicine. Clearly, you missed the message. I never said I was innocent. But I am more patient than I need to be.
    You made also comments about my nationality and my grammatical shortcomings even if you perfectly know English is my second/third language...
    For f*ck's sake. If you are aware that your English is lacking, perhaps you should be more charitable when interpreting others. This is what I said in the thread about your English:
    According to RJman, it's not what's in the thread, but in your mouth, that's the problem. However, I think the problem is that Lasbar types funny and RJman had a strict, emotionally aloof upbringing.
    If Lasbar gets to use ellipses without limitation, I should get to freely use italics.
    I wasn't making fun of you. I was making fun of the thread, Vox, and myself. That you did not understand what I said to be tongue-in-cheek, and that you took such comments to be "vicious," indicates pretty clearly which of us is the actual narcissist. Also, I have never attacked you for being French. Gdl is French, too. I'm sure he can assure you that whatever jokes I have made about being French were all in good humor.
    The main problem with them? It is never their fault and they're always vicitm of the behaviour of others..
    There is absolutely no question that you started this exchange with a personal attack against me. You can try to twist things all you want, but I'm merely defending myself. Perhaps I should not do it so doggedly, to save myself the trouble, but I'm not the offender here and you should expect that I'll bite back at least some of the time.
    We're all have life outside SF and most of us just find you and your internet persona unbearable..
    Give me a f*cking break. Are you truly that oblivious to the irony that you can't stop talking about me? I don't like your persona either, but I don't mention you or attack you unless you come after me first. That says a lot. Clearly, you are interested in winning validation or popularity through the forum. Otherwise, what is the purpose of so frequently broadcasting your personal distaste for me? Grow up. You have kids, after all. Is this how you'd have them behave at school? Constantly talking trash about some peer they don't personally like?
     
  15. Bhowie

    Bhowie Senior member

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    [​IMG]

    Manton, I'm not trying to stick up for that asshole Vox or anything. I also have never said anything that could have been personally insulting to you, that I recall. I am pretty close to your proportions and also resemble a 2x4 board. So here it goes [​IMG].

    \tYou do seem to be leaning back in this picture, and I'm not going to even attempt to guess the real culprit for this. Your leg(s) seem to be slightly forward as well as your arms. Your shoulders appear to be behind your hips, I don't know where shoulders are normally positioned on a person. Not a personal jab, but the picture gives you the appearance of leaning backwards.
     

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