45 min 3 times a week in a good gym, what do you do?

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Philosoph

Heh...there was a thread on front squats a while back, which degenerated fairly quickly when a certain idiot poster dropped in.

Anyway, front squats force you to develop good squatting posture. You must keep your torso upright or you lose the weight forward. It's very hard to "cheat" on a front squat. What this does is place the load more squarely on your legs (quads, in particular) as well as increasing the support strength of your core. More athleticism + better posture.

thanks - I am familiar with the other stuff, just never tried a forward squat, basically because it seemed to much more work than a back squat.

thanks for all the help

 

[beano]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

yeah, here's the thing, it looks like, because my office is moving, I may be able to arrange to get to my gym 3 times a week for about 45 minutes.

now what I usually do is - once a week about 30 minutes in the actual gym (bench press, squats and lat pulldowns, 3 sets), 1-3 times a week krav maga, and 1-3 times about 15 minutes with a kettlebell. I will continue with the krav, and hopefully continue with the kettlebell on days when I am not doing anything else, but I want to add about 105 minutes a week in a real gym.

now, before I got married, I would do just under 1 hour, 5 days a week in a gym, and that would be divided into two different types of workouts - arms, shoulders and chest and back, core and legs, alternating.

when I stoped going so often, I went into a more simplified workout - basically incline press, squat and lat pulldown. for a few years during the transition I did a few other complex lifts, but slowly cut them out as time became shorter.



so, the big question to me comes down to - 2 or 3 seperate groups of excersizes on different days, or one group 3 times a week? if it were 4-5 days, I would definatly do groups. if it were 2 days, I would definatly do one set of excersizes. I am a little torn on this. any advice will be aprectiated.


what am I trying to achieve? basically to build up and maintain muscle mass, not too much because I don't want to have to make any additional changes or invest any more time than this. and I want it to be something that I enjoy - hence I have decided it will be limited to the weight room. I know putting that time in running will do me more good, but I hate running.

So there's no cardio in your routines at all? Is there cardio in your krav maga classes? if not there are other options to getting cardio without having to run, although jogging in my opinion is still the best thing you could do. There's also jumping rope, hitting the bag, swimming, etc. I just don't agree with having a routine without some cardio in there. I've found that exercising your internals helps in overall development and maintenance of your muscles.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by beano

So there's no cardio in your routines at all? Is there cardio in your krav maga classes? if not there are other options to getting cardio without having to run, although jogging in my opinion is still the best thing you could do. There's also jumping rope, hitting the bag, swimming, etc. I just don't agree with having a routine without some cardio in there. I've found that exercising your internals helps in overall development and maintenance of your muscles.

no, let me clarify - I see these three 45 minutes sessions as a sort of add on to what I do today, a little gift, as it were. my gym is directly on the route between my new office and my house, so I have to go by it. so, these sessions will be spent in the gym.

I do some cardio - I walk a lot, the krav classes are extremly cardio intense, and kettlebells are a lot more cardio intense than wieghts are. Just, for these particular sessions, I wish to focus on something that involves the type of weights that are found in gyms.

 

[Philosoph]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

thanks - I am familiar with the other stuff, just never tried a forward squat, basically because it seemed to much more work than a back squat.

thanks for all the help

Anytime.

I'm not trying to force the front squats on you. I think there's a lot of benefit to them, but some people live perfectly happy lives without ever doing one. Your call. If you don't want to do them, you could always substitute something like barbell lunges/step ups, back squats with a different rep range, or some other leg-type thing.

Originally Posted by beano

So there's no cardio in your routines at all? Is there cardio in your krav maga classes? if not there are other options to getting cardio without having to run, although jogging in my opinion is still the best thing you could do. There's also jumping rope, hitting the bag, swimming, etc. I just don't agree with having a routine without some cardio in there. I've found that exercising your internals helps in overall development and maintenance of your muscles.

I don't like to emphasize cardio too much, but I'd agree with you that some kind of conditioning work is good. With the program I posted, if the rest breaks are short, it'll be a pretty darn good workout. And then Day 3 is Complex Day, which is a fantastic cardio workout. If you've never tried complexes, I highly recommend them. The feeling I get from them is about the same as I remember having after wrestling a full 5-minute match.

 

[andyw]

4 wall handball with ranked B players and higher.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by Philosoph

Anytime.

I'm not trying to force the front squats on you. I think there's a lot of benefit to them, but some people live perfectly happy lives without ever doing one. Your call. If you don't want to do them, you could always substitute something like barbell lunges/step ups, back squats with a different rep range, or some other leg-type thing.



.


basically, at one point I got into a pattern of the simplest, fastest to do set that I could - squat press lat pulldown. if I have a little more time now, I'll try front squats. for what ever reason, even when I was much more serious about lifting, I din't remember ever trying them.

 

[studite]

Running hard for 30 mins

 

[idlewild]

2 cardio days and 1 day on weights

 

[LA Guy]

Sprints - 4x800m + 4x400m. You can do this on the treadmill. Pace yourself somewhat for the 800m, and run on an 1-3 incline as fast as the treadmill will possible go (I assume you will be in a gym and not have access to a track). Most treadmills will go up to 12 miles/h (that is a 5 minute mile, or an 75 sec split time, not that fast, but fast enough. The 800s should be at roughly 80% of this top speed. With only 3 workouts a week, you will have plenty of recovery time. These sprints will boost your metabolism well after you are done. Assuming that this takes you 30 minutes, (you can get it down to about 20-25 ) you have time to do 3x15 dips, 3x12 pullups, and 3x30 pushups. if you have 15 minutes more, work one day on kettleball, one day on 1 minute and 2 minute punching drills, and 1 day circuit. You are not going to gain a lot of mass, but you *will* develop a lot of muscle endurance, explosive power, and be pretty well conditioned.

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

no, let me clarify - I see these three 45 minutes sessions as a sort of add on to what I do today, a little gift, as it were. my gym is directly on the route between my new office and my house, so I have to go by it. so, these sessions will be spent in the gym.

I do some cardio - I walk a lot, the krav classes are extremly cardio intense, and kettlebells are a lot more cardio intense than wieghts are. Just, for these particular sessions, I wish to focus on something that involves the type of weights that are found in gyms.

I've seen a lot of Krav classes recently, and maybe this classes I observed were anomalous, but a lot of the stuff that they were learning seemed to be elementary MMA stuff, without any emphasis on conditioning, strength training, or muscle conditioning, and none of the guys seemed particularly fast, strong, or technically proficient. Certainly, unless they had some special Kung Fu that I was not privy to, I wouldn't say that anyone of these guys was any better than someone who trains exclusively at a McDojo. Definitely, none were fight ready. I really think that intense cardio followed by 15 minutes of non-stop bag work would be much more useful for general fitness.

 

[Matt]

I have a feeling, given Zach's background, that he is pretty well able to discern good Krav from bad.

Actually last time I saw him, he was very complimentary about the instruction he has found in Chicago vs the place he trained in New York - which was apparently pure McDojo but was the only place near his house.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

I've seen a lot of Krav classes recently, and maybe this classes I observed were anomalous, but a lot of the stuff that they were learning seemed to be elementary MMA stuff, without any emphasis on conditioning, strength training, or muscle conditioning, and none of the guys seemed particularly fast, strong, or technically proficient. Certainly, unless they had some special Kung Fu that I was not privy to, I wouldn't say that anyone of these guys was any better than someone who trains exclusively at a McDojo. Definitely, none were fight ready. I really think that intense cardio followed by 15 minutes of non-stop bag work would be much more useful for general fitness.

I don't know, it seems that a lot of places are opening that are pretty crappy - the organization that owns the name in the US will pretty much allow anybody to open a school if they take a short course and pay a chunk of money.


I would tell you that in terms of "Technical proficiency" I can see your point - the system seems to be to teach a few simple strikes and then work on those for the first few levels, and it takes a long time to go up the levels. I am not overly impressed by the way body mechanics of striking is tought in american krav maga.

where it the strength in the school? - I think that the single biggest advantage is in the amount of contact in the workouts. my school has 3 types of sessions

1. technics session - typically, we start out with 10 minutes of excersizes based around throwing medicine balls in pair, with other stuff worked in. medicine ball for a minute, minute of situps, medinine ball, sprints, medicine ball, pushups. then we do some group "games" like shoulder touching excersizes (basically facing off a person and trying to touch his shoulders while not having your shoulders touched, or a similar game with toes or knees.

then, for about 40 minutes we do excersizes bases around pads, in rotating pairs - one partner holds a pad and the other punches, kicks or knees in a certain series, then switch, then change the series. the expectation is to do this at full force. there may be one or two very short water breaks, but aside from that you are striking at full force for the whole time.

then 10 minutes on a groundwork or grappling technique.

all of the work with pads is very good - there is pretty much no practising striking that isn't full force contacting a pad. on top of that, you get a good feeling for how your strikes will effect people of differnt size (because you are rotating partners ) and when you are not striking, you are holding a pad and getting hit.

the second type of class is an hour of hitting a heavy bag, with various exersizes thrown in, and medicne ball for 10 minutes in the begining. you work in pairs, and the instructor shouts out instuctions - jab cross, knee knee, etc.

the third in all sparring, full contact but with full body armor. several pairs at the same time, rotating partners, sometimes 2 on one or 3 on one. so you spend maybe 1/3 of the hour, maybe more, sparing.

those can get a little tiring.


in my opinion, the big advantage of these is that you develop a good level of agresion, and you get an excellent feeliing for what you are capable of. the cardio level, in my opinion, is pretty high. having practiced chinese, korean and okinawan styles at different times, I'd say that the level of energy spent here is a great deal more - there is zero standing around, pretty much no time when you aren't actually striking something (unless you are grappling).


but I would agree that there is almost no focus (in early stages) on good mechanics of striking. that is something that I find very strange about the way that krav is taught in the US.

 

[Fuuma]

Haha, power snatch, I'm really good with that, teehee.

Ok I have no idea what this stuff means, you're all speaking Portuguese to me, where can I find a nice glossary?

 

[LA Guy]

Originally Posted by globetrotter

I don't know, it seems that a lot of places are opening that are pretty crappy - the organization that owns the name in the US will pretty much allow anybody to open a school if they take a short course and pay a chunk of money.


I would tell you that in terms of "Technical proficiency" I can see your point - the system seems to be to teach a few simple strikes and then work on those for the first few levels, and it takes a long time to go up the levels. I am not overly impressed by the way body mechanics of striking is tought in american krav maga.

where it the strength in the school? - I think that the single biggest advantage is in the amount of contact in the workouts. my school has 3 types of sessions

1. technics session - typically, we start out with 10 minutes of excersizes based around throwing medicine balls in pair, with other stuff worked in. medicine ball for a minute, minute of situps, medinine ball, sprints, medicine ball, pushups. then we do some group "games" like shoulder touching excersizes (basically facing off a person and trying to touch his shoulders while not having your shoulders touched, or a similar game with toes or knees.

then, for about 40 minutes we do excersizes bases around pads, in rotating pairs - one partner holds a pad and the other punches, kicks or knees in a certain series, then switch, then change the series. the expectation is to do this at full force. there may be one or two very short water breaks, but aside from that you are striking at full force for the whole time.

then 10 minutes on a groundwork or grappling technique.

all of the work with pads is very good - there is pretty much no practising striking that isn't full force contacting a pad. on top of that, you get a good feeling for how your strikes will effect people of differnt size (because you are rotating partners ) and when you are not striking, you are holding a pad and getting hit.

the second type of class is an hour of hitting a heavy bag, with various exersizes thrown in, and medicne ball for 10 minutes in the begining. you work in pairs, and the instructor shouts out instuctions - jab cross, knee knee, etc.

the third in all sparring, full contact but with full body armor. several pairs at the same time, rotating partners, sometimes 2 on one or 3 on one. so you spend maybe 1/3 of the hour, maybe more, sparing.

those can get a little tiring.


in my opinion, the big advantage of these is that you develop a good level of agresion, and you get an excellent feeliing for what you are capable of. the cardio level, in my opinion, is pretty high. having practiced chinese, korean and okinawan styles at different times, I'd say that the level of energy spent here is a great deal more - there is zero standing around, pretty much no time when you aren't actually striking something (unless you are grappling).


but I would agree that there is almost no focus (in early stages) on good mechanics of striking. that is something that I find very strange about the way that krav is taught in the US.

The classes you describe sound familiar, though I've never seen these guys use the heavy bag. They do use the pads full force, but I wasn't impressed by that force. I mean, a good roundhouse should break bones, and when you crank against a large pad, it should at least rock your partner. Like you said, I think that probably the students are just not taught how to strike properly. All their equipment has "Krav Maga" on it. I didn't realize that an organization actually owned the name.

As for teaching "aggression", I suppose that you are right. But it seems sort of sad that guys have to be taught to not be physically timid.

Definitely not criticizing Krav. One of my old sparring partners used to be a IDF commando, and he was a really good challenge, very good at using angles against takedowns and he threw a lot of unorthodox strikes, although he had a brown belt in BJJ and was a decent boxer (use to give me wicked headaches with his jab), so I don't know how much Krav I actually saw in action.

 

[globetrotter]

Originally Posted by LA Guy

The classes you describe sound familiar, though I've never seen these guys use the heavy bag.


I think that the school I go to is at the high end of the scale. we have a rack with (?)14 or so 100 pound bags, about >20 medicine balls and >20 thai boxing shields. I am guessing a lot of schools dont want to put in that kind of investment. it means that every 2 people in class can have a heavy bag, a medicine ball and a shield.

They do use the pads full force, but I wasn't impressed by that force. I mean, a good roundhouse should break bones, and when you crank against a large pad, it should at least rock your partner. Like you said, I think that probably the students are just not taught how to strike properly.

this is a weakness and strength of american krav - the basic idea (here) is that it is for self defense, and that everybody should be able to do all the moves. so they teach for the basic common denominator. I am honestly not sure the rational behind not teaching good body mechanics in the begning, but I am a little scared it may be a business decision. in my school, more than half the guys are cops and LE, so the work gets pretty hard, but I can see with the small people and the women they aren't generating a lot of force.

but, that said - in my last dojo, which I chose for proximity to my house and convenience we had a couple of guys who were at championship level in forms - they competed a few times while I was there at national and internatioal level. so you have a black sash, 20 years old, can do beutiful kicks and spins and jumps, but he couldn't generate a lot more force than some of these ladies who are in my krav class who have a year in class. I think the fact that everything we do is against something - a pad or a bag, helps.

All their equipment has "Krav Maga" on it. I didn't realize that an organization actually owned the name.

yeah, this is the worst part. in my school, there is a sign that says all of your clothing has to be official krav clothing. I ignore it, and nobody has ever said anything to me. my padding and other gear isn't official either. but they try to sell it to us.

As for teaching "aggression", I suppose that you are right. But it seems sort of sad that guys have to be taught to not be physically timid.

actually, I think that this is about the hardest, and one of the most important parts. one of the things that krav excels in is getting people to make the switch into a more agressive mode. if you have gotten though life never actually hitting anything, pounding a pad a few hundred times a week and working on excersizes that involve answering agression can be a be help.

also, american krav is aimed not jsut at guys, think about teaching some 50 year old lady to be willing to hit - it really isn't an easy thing.

Definitely not criticizing Krav. One of my old sparring partners used to be a IDF commando, and he was a really good challenge, very good at using angles against takedowns and he threw a lot of unorthodox strikes, although he had a brown belt in BJJ and was a decent boxer (use to give me wicked headaches with his jab), so I don't know how much Krav I actually saw in action.

yeah - here is the biggest secret that the american krav organization doesn't want you to know: the whole "style" is based around teaching soldiers (at least 20 years ago) there were a few courses - a two week course and then two 6 week courses. and that was it. there was a course for instructors. now, sure, these were 40 hour a week instruction courses, but that was pretty much the whole sybolus of krav. and it was based on boxing strikes with a few modifications, a few asian martial arts kicks and knees, and some jujistu and wrestling work (which I believe has become a bigger part of it). but there wasn't really anything there for a person to "study" krav for years. the people who did well in krav did something else (like your friend). in israel, not that many people who aren't in the krav business practice krav for years.


here, they want people to study for years, so they have padded out the style, and I suspect that it may influence the way they teach - they may not worl too hard on the body mechnics of striking in the first year to have soemthing to teach you later on.


but I would still say - I think that the heavy work with actually hitting something is a big benifit. and, to me, it is about as much cardio as I want to get at this point in life.



one other thing - and I think that this was raised on one of the martial arts threads: if you are looking to be a high level martial artist, and/or competitive, I wouldn't recomend krav. krav is great for taking somebody who doens't know how to fight and teaching them in a short term, and it fits my needs very well - it gives me an unlimited supply of sparing partners in a good framework. I am not really looking to learn anything (in a martial art) at this point in my life, I am looking for a framework to excersize.