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2L - Take an Unpaid Internship?

retronotmetro

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Originally Posted by dl20
My fiancee went through it and graduated 2 yrs ago. I gave her the same advice at the time.

dl


Then no offense, but you give terrible advice, unless given to someone who has made a deliberate decision never to work for a midlaw or biglaw firm. Your glib absolutism is not helpful to anyone else.

If you don't land a spot in a summer associate program, or one of the very few paid school-year clerk that firms might have for 2Ls or 3Ls, your chance of getting a full-time position through the front door at a firm will drop dramatically.

Not everyone wants to punch 2400 billable hours a year at Biglaw, but some people need the bucks to pay down loans or build a nest egg. If you want to go that route, there's no way around going for a paying gig while you are a student.
 

retronotmetro

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Originally Posted by mafoofan
It's already mid-March, so there are no paying summer associate positions at big firms left. The OP really shouldn't hope for anything like that. Other positions are much less likely to pay (any worthwhile amount, at least). At this point, the OP should strongly consider taking the best of what's in front of him. I'd keep the internship offer open as long as possible while searching for other jobs. If nothing turns up, I'd take it. Even though it won't net a permanent offer, the OP will still have something on his resume to help him get a job somewhere else post-graduation. Nothing is worse than an unaccounted-for 2L summer.

If the OP must choose between this internship and some other job without the possibility of a permanent offer, I think he should simply pick the one most related to the practice area he's interested in.


I agree.

I also think that if nothing paying shows up, it could be worthwhile to hunt for a summer internship at a public interest group or a governmental agency (including DA's or PD's offices) or a judicial externship. Each of those could have side benefits. Interning at a non-extremist public interest group is good on the resume, and can get you contacts at various firms who may do pro bono work through the group. Working for a DA's office or PD's office can get you an inside track on permanent gigs, and can also get you into court as a certified law student in some jurisdictions. Externing for the right judge can help you get through the side door at firms.
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by retronotmetro
Then no offense, but you give terrible advice, unless given to someone who has made a deliberate decision never to work for a midlaw or biglaw firm. Your glib absolutism is not helpful to anyone else.

If you don't land a spot in a summer associate program, or one of the very few paid school-year clerk that firms might have for 2Ls or 3Ls, your chance of getting a full-time position through the front door at a firm will drop dramatically.

Not everyone wants to punch 2400 billable hours a year at Biglaw, but some people need the bucks to pay down loans or build a nest egg. If you want to go that route, there's no way around going for a paying gig while you are a student.


+1000. It's amazing to me how many people who've never been to law school presume to know what it takes to be a lawyer. While I'm not specifically talking about dl20, his advice touches on the general public's ignorance of the separation between elite/non-elite law schools and the resulting discrepancies in job opportunities. People are also unaware of what 'law' is as a subject matter. You have no idea how many times someone has mentioned to me: "You know, I always thought I'd be a good lawyer." It's particularly annoying when I'm studying hard for an exam or tired from a long day of classes.

For those that aspire to work at a big firm, the 2L summer associate position is nearly a requirement. People who get permanent offers without filling that position are extremely rare, typically took a summer associate position somewhere else their 2L summer, and tend to have grades and a prestigious-enough law school to justify it. Even my friend at Chicago who is an LR editor and did didn't like his summer firm, had to jump through hoops to secure a permanent offer somewhere else post-graduation. Hell, he's clerking for circuit court judge that feeds clerks to SCOTUS.

Originally Posted by retronotmetro
I also think that if nothing paying shows up, it could be worthwhile to hunt for a summer internship at a public interest group or a governmental agency (including DA's or PD's offices) or a judicial externship. Each of those could have side benefits. Interning at a non-extremist public interest group is good on the resume, and can get you contacts at various firms who may do pro bono work through the group. Working for a DA's office or PD's office can get you an inside track on permanent gigs, and can also get you into court as a certified law student in some jurisdictions. Externing for the right judge can help you get through the side door at firms.

Excellent point. If the OP is indeed seeking employment at a big firm, doing some free work for a lovey-dovey non-profit organization during his summer might actually be the best course of action since it provides a reasonable explanation for why he wasn't working at a firm.
 

Concordia

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The same advice applies in the investment world, BTW. Many of the most creative institutional investors are non-profits, and getting an MBA internship at one of them is frequently easier than pounding down the door at Fidelity or a Wall Street firm. Especially if you don't threaten to cause a problem in their budget.
 

CTGuy

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Mafoofan makes some great points as does retro. It really depends so much where you are going to law school and where you are trying to go. If you are at a top school and want to go biglaw then that changes everything. I have no shame in admitting I went to a third tier school and I knew all along that biglaw was out of the question barring something external to my law school qualifications.

From my perspective the inhouse job I had was not of much value because there was no chance of getting hired there in a job I was interested in having. I think there was a single attorney there who had started someplace inhouse and she was a glorified paralegal. The other guys at the company had all come from other large area firms where they had been "trained" to do the work.

I now work as a lobbyist, but I think that in general I received a lot more benefit from my experience working for a small firm because its the type of work I will more likely see if I ever "practice".

I think more info would help if you want more precise advice.
 

dl20

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Originally Posted by retronotmetro
Not everyone wants to punch 2400 billable hours a year at Biglaw, but some people need the bucks to pay down loans or build a nest egg. If you want to go that route, there's no way around going for a paying gig while you are a student.
Ok OK...no I am not a lawyer....but I do have a general grudge against professions that require 3 yrs of schooling that enable said student to start at 150k
tounge.gif
I did not give fiancee that exact advice but have stressed that money isn't everything early on. She has her foot in the door of a major law firm in Philly and complains about making 100k when her friends are making 150 elsewhere. She is well liked where she is at, does good work, and as an added plus the partners are friends of her family so I have no doubt she could make partner down the road if she wanted to. RE: being a student and having no "nest egg." I'm 28, have 2 MS degrees, and am 2 yrs away from finishing my doctorate. I've spent years working for free during internships and practica and will continue to do so the next 2 years and then make next to nothing the following year during fellowship. During parts of my education working was not allowed and essentially impossible (though I picked up night shifts here and there anyway). My point is that you do what you have to do to get your degree and enjoy knowing that the money will come someday as a result of your efforts. This is not directed at anyone in particular but nowdays every student fresh out of school thinks they are owed some huge salary and has no concept of starting off small and building your skills and your name before the cash starts coming in. dl
 

teddieriley

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^^It's 160K in most major markets, not $150K.

Not every student thinks they are owed huge salaries. I'm sure that's what they aspire for, and there's no harm in that. Not every path requires starting off small and spending years and years before money starts coming in. That sort of thinking perpetuates a cycle of the working class. Again, nothing wrong with that, but a different perspective on work and earning income is in order. Read some Rich Dad Poor Dad. I have issues with Kiyosaki myself, but the basic message rings true.
 

dl20

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Originally Posted by teddieriley
That sort of thinking perpetuates a cycle of the working class. Again, nothing wrong with that, but a different perspective on work and earning income is in order. Read some Rich Dad Poor Dad. I have issues with Kiyosaki myself, but the basic message rings true.

I hear you but disagree somewhat. Medical and healthcare professionals need time to first finish school and then build a solid practice which doesn't happen overnight. I will agree with you 100-fold that there is nothing wrong with a go-getter attitude. I suppose my main point is that making sacrifices now will often translate to success later on monetarily and professionally and that it is something to keep in mind.

dl
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by dl20
I hear you but disagree somewhat. Medical and healthcare professionals need time to first finish school and then build a solid practice which doesn't happen overnight. I will agree with you 100-fold that there is nothing wrong with a go-getter attitude. I suppose my main point is that making sacrifices now will often translate to success later on monetarily and professionally and that it is something to keep in mind.

dl


You make it sound like law school isn't the three years of hellish bootcamp that it is. Anyway, doctors do quite well for themselves post-residency and don't have the hours of big firm lawyers--they also have the best possible job security and the ability to keep doing what they're doing for decades. While big firm lawyers may make more out of the gate and earlier, doctors have a more stable income in the long-term. Remember, most big firm lawyers burn out after a few years. Ever heard of a burnt out doctor?
 

dl20

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Originally Posted by mafoofan
You make it sound like law school isn't the three years of hellish bootcamp that it is. Anyway, doctors do quite well for themselves post-residency and don't have the hours of big firm lawyers--they also have the best possible job security and the ability to keep doing what they're doing for decades. While big firm lawyers may make more out of the gate and earlier, doctors have a more stable income in the long-term. Remember, most big firm lawyers burn out after a few years. Ever heard of a burnt out doctor?

Of course there are burnt out doctors. My pop takes 10 days off a year to go on vacation and works the other 355. He's done this for 30 years so far. Just the same I also know doctors who work 9-5 four days a week or even less. You can't make a comparison between the hours of a doc and lawyer, there is just to much variation. Post-residency pay again varies greatly depending on what path the doc takes; I maintain that starting a successful PP doesn't happen overnight for anyone. I have great respect for lawyers and the training they endure but it is still only 3 years of school. Docs and psychologists can train for nearly a decade before starting out.

dl
 

montecristo#4

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I wouldn't do the internship. I can't think of a company that would hire a law student directly out of school. Unless you plan on a business career directly, go with the small town firm that pays. At least this will get you better leverage when you interview for a large firm position as a 3L.
 

Ace Rimmer

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Originally Posted by dl20
I did not give fiancee that exact advice but have stressed that money isn't everything early on. She has her foot in the door of a major law firm in Philly and complains about making 100k when her friends are making 150 elsewhere.

That's Philly. If she wants more money she'll have to move to NYC or DC to get those types of starting numbers. Most Philly biglaw firms will start first year associates at $100-120k. So she's not doing too poorly for Philly. I don't know if that will help, but those are the breaks in this town.
 

TheFoo

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Originally Posted by dl20
Of course there are burnt out doctors. My pop takes 10 days off a year to go on vacation and works the other 355. He's done this for 30 years so far. Just the same I also know doctors who work 9-5 four days a week or even less. You can't make a comparison between the hours of a doc and lawyer, there is just to much variation. Post-residency pay again varies greatly depending on what path the doc takes; I maintain that starting a successful PP doesn't happen overnight for anyone. I have great respect for lawyers and the training they endure but it is still only 3 years of school. Docs and psychologists can train for nearly a decade before starting out.

dl


I would venture to say that you have far more lawyers dropping out of the profession or taking large pay-cuts for the sake of better hours than doctors who do the same. The average doctor in the U.S. makes ~$120,000 a year; the average lawyer makes half of that. This should be pretty telling in and of itself.

However, let's look closer. The reality is that big firm jobs paying $160,000 a year (not counting bonus) are very difficult to get unless you go to a top law school. The vast majority of lawyers don't start out making anywhere close to that kind of money. In fact, there has been some controversy lately over lower-ranked law schools misleading their students when it comes to career opportunities; such students are made to believe they will easily get a big firm job, when in reality, they will be lucky to get paid-by-the-hour to do doc review.

Furthermore, most big firm lawyers leave their firms after 3 or 4 years. Many, if not most, then take in-house positions or work for the government. This means a significant pay-cut. Great in-house positions in NYC typically pay somewhere around $200k, but often less. Government salaries are even lower, below $100k.

Unlike doctors, it's implausible for lawyers to cut back their work to only four days a week and maintain the high salaries we're talking about, nonetheless keep a practice going at all. Client demands and the nature of legal service disallow lawyers from so neatly scheduling their work week.

At the end, and in general, lawyers must either continue to work strenuous hours to make good money or settle on making much less of it. For many, their prime earning years will be the first few of practice. Doctors tend to more reliably and steadily increase income, although perhaps at a slower rate and with a lower ceiling.
 

retronotmetro

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Originally Posted by dl20

This is not directed at anyone in particular but nowdays every student fresh out of school thinks they are owed some huge salary and has no concept of starting off small and building your skills and your name before the cash starts coming in.

dl


For almost everyone I have known in Biglaw who later bailed, their first job out of school--the job that they got through their summer associate gig--was either the best paying job they will ever have, or provided them with the financial cushion to do something like start their own business or hang a shingle, which may or may not allow them to surpass what they would have made in Biglaw.

If you "start off small," your chances of ever getting hired to do major transactional work for big clients is close to zero, and any major litigation you do is most likely going to be as a plaintiffs' lawyer--provided that you can find a practice niche that you can get good at. If you want to do high end transactional work, you need to be in a Biglaw firm. Same thing if you want to do bet-the-company litigation. Again, not everyone wants to do that kind of work, and a lot of people just do it for a few years to get the Biglaw experience on their resume before moving on.

If you want to use salary as a metric for success, my law school classmates and Biglaw contemporaries who started out in Biglaw or Midlaw are more successful than those who did not go that route. This includes people who started their own firms after working in Biglaw for several years.

If you want to use job satisfaction as a metric for success, my law school classmates who work in public interest law or who are lifers in the DAs or PDs offices are probably the most successful.

My classmates who hung a shingle right out of school, or who went to work for small firms, tend to change jobs nomadically and I'm not aware of any of them having lots of cash coming in. Well, except for the one guy who was doing personal injury scams with a crooked doctor, but I don't think he counts anymore since he got sent to prison and disbarred.
 

samblau

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Another law school thread! Fantastic!

Unpaid....ehhh.....stand clear unless you speak to a supervisor and clearly indicate that you have concerns about future employment Gauge their response accordingly. I did not get a large firm offer, or any offer, my first summer until the end of June. A small securities outfit hired me for $18 hr (+ $300 bonus!) and I stayed for nearly two years during school. Not great $ and I did not stay permanently but the experience looked good when I applied to other jobs and I paid off almost a full year of tuition doing it. The entry level job market is tough...their is a lot of pressure to temp as the hourly rate is good relative to a small firm that will expect huge hours for $50k. The best bet is clearly gov't...great experience, decent $ and realistic hours. Of course most, if not all, would jump for BigLaw simply bc of the $.

The legal market is drastically different than many others. A law degree is only a gateway, I still am far behind the paralegals here when it comes to rules of procedure and the like. As for billings, client interaction etc., its just a mess, I am happy that I only deal with my bosses stress rather than the insanity itself.

Way too many people are choosing law school as a default degree and schools are simply bleeding people dry. Many new prof.s are leaving BigLaw for academia...with good reason...a cushy $100k+ pay for 1/4 the work and 1/10 the stress with the option to return as senior counsel or some other title. Many outside the profession cannot relate. High legal fees are sometiems warranted given the amount of work put in to a case and most does not go to young associates + often times clients will balk at paying a bill or the court will cut fees ths leading to inflated billings. It would be silly for young lawyers to cry poverty however the reality is that it is a very unsatisfying profession, at least at the beggining, and absent a BigLaw offer you will struggle to make ends meet. My mother always said that eBay would never get me any where...if it wasn;t for those 8 years of savings + working 2 jobs throughout law school there is no way I could afford to live in NYC. Even with significant help from my parents/grandparents I am $75k in the hole...and my peers laugh at me for having it easy. good luck to you, PM me if you have any specific Q's. I just graduated last year, have some insight. Sorry grammar police, wrote this during lunch...don't have time to edit.
 

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