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2015 Dubious Honors: Most Helpful/Informative Post (Classic Menswear). Nominate your candidates!


Darth Millennial
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Feb 10, 2009
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2015 Dubious Honors: Most Helpful/Informative Post (Classic Menswear)

What a year! We saw some real milestones, and it's time to take an appreciative look back at what we've all accomplished. Styleforum is full of individuals who deserve to dubiously honored for their contributions to the community, and we need your help! With that said, we're happy to announce the very first STYLEFORUM DUBIOUS HONORS, where we look back at the year gone by and pick the very best (and weirdest) posts that were made to the forum.

To see all how it works and brows all the categories, click here.

THIS THREAD IS FOR NOMINATIONS TOWARDS THE AWARD FOR "Most Helpful/Informative Post: Classic Menswear." Please post your nominations below. You have until January 20th to make your nominations! After that, a poll will be created in this thread and there will be a 3-day voting period, ending at 12AM of January 24th. The winners will be revealed in the January 27th newsletter (not signed up for the newsletter? Sign up here).


Timed Out
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Jan 30, 2008
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Sarto's abstruse post on ties.


There are lots of claims about what a classic 7-fold is and since they often contradict each other by definition most of them are wrong.

However, as I am in the listening business (custom made/bespoke only) I only make what I am requested to make, which makes life much simpler.

Now practical points for seven-fold ties:

1) A 7-fold tie has seven folds and that is what makes it a 7-fold tie - nothing else.

2) An unlined 7-fold will wrinkle more than a lined tie.

3) Over time it will not hold its shape as well as a lined tie.

4) The knot will tend to be smaller as there is no interlining.

5) The difference in the knot other than above is primarily due to the fabric not the construction. As Raindog mentions interlining is a key point, if a 7-fold has interlining why would it behave differently than a lined 3-fold other than being heavier?- Which is not a bad thing as heaviness is something that many men like.

6) In Italy some makers describe 6-fold ties as 7-folds I have no idea why - but they are certainly not 7-folds.

7) Some makers such as Talbott describe 7-folds as having died out and been revived by them - I think not as in Italy seven-folds have been made for a long time without a stopping point.

The gentleman on this thread from Naples may be able to mention historical stories he has heard from his teachers to add more background to this.

Originally Posted by Sam Hober View Post

Remaking a tie can be done correctly in which case it will be $35 and up.

Your tie is worth only what you feel it is worth as a general rule I only suggest remaking ties when it was a gift from someone special.

Now if someone is a student or something like that and can do it cheaply that is fine but won't be the same as an experienced custom tie maker remaking a tie.

Remaking involves taking the tie apart, changing the interlining if needed, adjusting as needed and possible shape and construction. Then putting the tie back together.

This can't be done quickly and properly.

If someone suggests a low price shortcuts are being taken.

I don't understand why you wouldn't first try to fix it yourself as I described in my earlier post unless money is not an issue.

7 fold, here I go on the way are made on Naples and I was learnt.

The 7 fold ties come from an ancient Neapolitan thing that was making a tie without interlining and using only a piece without any sewn, to make bulk, they folded the silk into several folds. I do not know if big silk sheets as today existed at this time, so I got my doubts about this story. I have done single piece ties with no sewns on it but with modern loom made silk sheets of circa 2 meters.

Then on the 90s, after the boom on the 80´s of Milanese Italian brands since Miami Vice´s Armani, Versace, etc , the Neapolitans followed with the actual 7 fold (which is technically a 6 fold as Hober pointed out) no one knows who made it first, only that was made a commercial success by Ciro Paone of Kiton (maybe due of his commercial exporting power) That is what I was told in several houses. I do not know if this is true or just a legend. I just repeat what I have been told.

That tie is a more "economic", since the real 7 fold made of a single piece, I just wrote would cost 300-500 today if were made. A friend did a limited series of cashmere from only a piece sold at 500 euros, for celebrity clients who like to show off Vicuña 30.000 euros overcoats, Bentleys and that fancy stuff for magazines and tv late shows.

The actual one has the blade and the narrow tip blade more wide, hence are folded into 7 folds, (with like 3 fold on the narrow blade as the tradition says) there is a version with 5 folds to save money as well as a bit fancy 12 fold, I also do that, but only got very few commissions. Let´s say is for collectors of handmade stuff who want to have one piece to see it. Some Neapolitan brands chargues 240 for one of this.

This following variants exist for ties; NOTE ALL THIS ARE MADE BY HAND with needle and fingers, the manual sewing machine( the usual ones we all got in mind operated by a seamtress) is only used to sew a few stitches on the interlining, to attach the upper and lower interling, and if the tie is lined, to sew the line.


On the contrary see how fast are made by the LIBA machine the commercial one sthis machine cost 200-300.000 euros and I have never seen one in person even I have been looking to see it working in person for curiosity, Marinella and others uses today this process unless a tie is commision bespoke with other measures, just on this ones would be made by hand as years before ( or as the top Neapolitan makers yet do);


A tie is made on a few seconds.

The usual Neapolitan 7 fold (actually 6) one, The normal has two interlinings, only natural wool and cotton, no way polyester. Usually comes "selflined"; the most expensive since consumes a lot of fabric, it means the back of the tie has the exact same silk.

LINED ON MONOCOLOR; Lined when the main fabric is too heavy or to save fabric per example, brands from I learnt as Borrelli or Kiton only uses pure silk (I also was teached from those), the exact one is used to line their jackets. On the comercial brands as Brioni, Corneliani etc that only do 3 fold, they use polyester with their logo engraved on.

The linen is sewn by machine as doing it by hand would be obnoxious.

UNLINED UNTIPPED ; the most precious one, the “gourmet” tie, has no line, have the exact same interlining as the rest, but is cutted at the bartack to hide it and the borders are handrolled. This takes several hours to do, usuallly only a wool layer of interlining is on it to make them lighter ( 2 layers for export). The side effect of this precious ties is that might lost the shape and ironing after a few uses, especially when the bartack is placed over 26cm to show all the folds, making an incredible piece of art, while the lined ones last almost forever. Is like driving a Ferrari, needs service after a few milles and should not be (abu)sed daily.

NOTE; ALL THE UNLINED TIES, DO HAVE THE SAME INTERLINING, NO WAY (THAT I HAVE SEEN) A TIE IS MADE WITHOUT INTERLINING (only for experimental or bespoked that way for any particular reason, EVEN ARE CALLED UNLINED, but the interlining is cutted where the bartack is, to make them more beautiful showing just the back of the main fabric.

I love this ones, specially when the fabric is jaquard; those who are not printed by inks, but the intrincated design from crossing threads, so you can see the "soul" of the fabric. Example is attached.

Since the folds are not seen by the rest of the people, it doesn´t adds any elegance to the outfit, that is sadly the truth, but is like a special magical fetish for those who like handmade garments and each tie is different to the other from the imperfections of sewing by hand.

5 FOLD SELFLINED, with machine made edges, economic version of the 7 one, note the edges are not as beautiful from the following ones by hand.

7 FOLD ( actually 6), SELFLINED;

The tie uses the same fabric as on the main face on the back, is made by hand suing only the manual sewing machine( not the Liba) to sew the back,lining and interlining, consumes more fabric, is the most sold.

12 FOLD TIES, This are not traditional, but interesting to own and see.

Note the bartack is close to be at 30 cms as special request of the client for the reddish tie, as higher as possible or even more. The owner and me proud to be his pupil, whose mother owns the Gold Medal of the Italian Senate given decades ago as best Arthisan of Italy at his time had to do this personally.

Commercial ties do have it placed at 12- 14 cms giving that closed letter like

industrial effect.


INDUSTRIAL 3 FOLD TIE; See this commercial 3 fold tie, lined on monocolor polyester ( I assume) See the bartack very low and cheaply looking, and commercial industrial looking. The usual garment everybody understands as tie.

As a note of the highest quality possible, the roll has to be the narrowest as the fabric allows, on commercial ties as Ralph Lauren, even is a nice tie made in Italy, are

made very fast, and has very few stitches and huge borders, to have the biggest industrial benefit, making as much as possible on the less time.


See this(I don´t like bashing opponents, I do not know this brand, just took the random pic from Google), the fabric is good ( Actually Tussah raw silk), and looks good, but note the handroll is made very fast, very thick and doesn´t looks very good. Is no Neapolitan but an imitation, takes a few minutes to do.

See this not good made tie, the hand roll is thick, irregular and rookie made and would not pass any quality control in Naples by any brand; Note as well the bartack is made fast and placed very low instead of high.

This tie looks pretty interesting but has thick handroll, it is made quite fast.

POOR HAND MADE ROLL ( This is flat and usually seen on Ralph Lauren made in Italy ties, even this one is Drakes) Made on a few seconds, simply poor. This is a gimmick to say is made by hand ( actually it is, but with poor quality) to hook/fool people and charge a hand made price to a tie that is indeed made by hand but with a quality that better to do by machine and lower the price as this, well, I got no words for “this”.


Note the ultranarrow handroll, the most difficult and time requesting to make. (hours)

Note 12 folds;

BAD KNOT (not sure if this is due from bad skills of the gentleman this unpro mix of Windsor and Four in Hand,or the tie is simply bad) Is the prior shown tie.

GOOD KNOT (7 fold unlined untipped, gives the same proper classic Four in Hand knot as on a 3 fold ) Gent is me, sorry, not pretending to be narcissistic, simply do not have other picture at hand), note I like the knots more thin and narrow yet, specially on the bottom)

To ilustrate, the back of this ties are “unlined untipped”, hence the interlining is cutted at the bartack, to allow the tip seen nude but already the interlining is used, otherwise the tie would behave as a hot spagguetti, with no shape;

Also, another mark of the Neapolitan tradition of the highest quality possible, is to place the bartack, the travetto, as high as possible, usually 26 or 27 cms from the tip. The Liba machine or commercial ties have the bartack as lowest as possible. Look for it that when buying a tie.

GOOD BARTACK, made by hand like a shirt handmade embroided buttonhole;

The English fabrics used.

BAD BARTACK (not necessary “bad” but not good enough for the prices requested ( random pics from Google, got no idea who made this, is actual, but sure no way Neapolitan) This way were made in Naples on the 70´s as I have renewed, reshaped almost all Italian brand ties for clients who gives us old ties with beautiful fabrics to refurbish at nowadays top standards.

Note different Non Neapolitan ways, this same maker as before is putting the bartack of the narrow blade very high, maybe is trying to do his own different product (good idea), maybe is trying to do a step beyond or “Sprezzatura” or however that word of mixing and exagerating,parodying all the classical features as possible (Non traditional but fashionista, bad idea OMHO, Pittiesque)

Note this ties lacks of the internal pulling thread, the “ soul” of a tie. Or at least I do not see it.


So many of you have wondered as me the first time I handled one, for what purpose is this thread on the back of the narrow blade but selfrealiced once you get back home and untie the knot, the tie gets ruffled but once you pull of the thread and the tie gets back to the original way. That is the thread from the tie is stitched on, the soul of the handmade tie.

Usually are done in black thread, I like to use the matching color.

Note, there are machine made ties that are starting to feature this( the ones shown here are all done by me or on the factories I practised on)


SELFLINED, see the thread, the “soul”.



I wish you a merry Christmas to all of you!!!

Edited by SartodiNapoli - 12/24/15 at 9:05pm
Last edited:


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Nov 15, 2013
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wow me nominated.


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