2010 Lexus LF-A

[KBW]

thousands of mods are available for the m3...not so with the IS-F. For just a little bit of money you can make an m3 that will destroy the IS-F in every test

 

[Southern-Nupe]

Originally Posted by DarkNWorn

Normally, I'd agree with you. But, Lexus is not exactly known for making a decent sports cars. All those other cars that he compared the LF-A with, they're all purebreds. You just can't gain decades of experience overnight. Do you seriously thing this $250k street-version LF-A will pose any significant competition to the Enzo or the Murcielago? Puhlease.
All I'm saying, it'll still be interesting to see what this thing can do. Toyota currently makes some pretty dull cars, but they do have experience in nearly every form of racing.

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by KBW

thousands of mods are available for the m3...not so with the IS-F. For just a little bit of money you can make an m3 that will destroy the IS-F in every test

Well hell, with a few mods the M3 can destroy plenty of sports cars that cost a lot more. That wasn't the point though, the point is Lexus' first entry to the sports car segment is a success and it has turned a few heads. Lexus brought what most did not expect from them. Like I said, if you match-up the price of the M3 and ISF feature for feature, M3 will probably cost $10k more so to those who are looking for more comfort, luxury and speed for the money, Lexus is a good choice and probably the best choice right now. I believe it is still the cheapest choice and the one that could be discounted the most.

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Well hell, with a few mods the M3 can destroy plenty of sports cars that cost a lot more. That wasn't the point though, the point is Lexus' first entry to the sports car segment is a success and it has turned a few heads. Lexus brought what most did not expect from them. Like I said, if you match-up the price of the M3 and ISF feature for feature, M3 will probably cost $10k more so to those who are looking for more comfort, luxury and speed for the money, Lexus is a good choice and probably the best choice right now. I believe it is still the cheapest choice and the one that could be discounted the most.


Yes, yes, yes, we're all aware of your love for the IS-F.

The base M3 is still $54.8k while the IS-F starts at $57.7k.

 

[RFX45]

Don't get me wrong, if I had a choice between these cars (C63, ISF, M3, RS4, etc...) and money is no object, it'll be the M3 concertible in black with coral red leather interior (I believe it is fox red for the M3) but that base M3 price comes with practically nothing. However, like I said before, the standard features on the ISF is loaded and match it up with the M3, even if you keep the M3 a manual and it'll cost a lot more than the ISF easy.

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Don't get me wrong, if I had a choice between these cars (C63, ISF, M3, RS4, etc...) and money is no object, it'll be the M3 concertible in black with coral red leather interior (I believe it is fox red for the M3) but that base M3 price comes with practically nothing. However, like I said before, the standard features on the ISF is loaded and match it up with the M3, even if you keep the M3 a manual and it'll cost a lot more than the ISF easy.


And to many, the fact the IS-F is "loaded" is a turn-off, because if you're an enthusiast that wants a sports car, you appreciate options a la carte. Looking at the IS-F, it seems like it doesn't actually have a lot of options -- stuck with a metallic paint, only 2 types of leather color combos, and an option of nav/upgraded sound. Might as well actually price the two out with similar options to get a real answer to the question:

IS-F:
$62,560
Nav/upgraded sound
8-speed Automatic
19" wheels


M3:
$67,225 (w/DSG), $62,575 (without DSG)
Metallic paint
Leather
19" wheels
Heated seats
Moonroof
Nav
Premium sound
iPod adapter

So even with a manual, it's far from costing a lot more than the IS-F... $15 more. And to be honest, I'd prefer the standard 18" M3 wheels over 19s, and would skip the premium sound and iPod adapter, which you're forced to buy with the IS-F with the Nav.

 

[RFX45]

Thats the thing, ISFs options are small becase most are already part of the standard features like the keyless entry/push button start, heated and colling perforated seats, 19" wheels, moonroof, etc...

That is what I meant by comparing it side by side, feature for feature. if you add all the standard features on the ISF and add it to the M3 as an option to buy, the M3 cost more so you do get more with the ISF. And yes, i get the argument of "sports car enthusiast doesn't need bigger wheels or better sounds" but come on now, not everyone who buys an M3 will burn rubber every red light they hit. To some, maybe even to most, it is about the power it provides, the comfort and luxury. Sure both cars offers these stuff but the ISF does offer more for the money and that is Lexus' advantage and that is all I am trying to say. I admit that the M3 is a much better sport car (it hasn't been dethroned in it's segment in what, 2 decades?) and probably beat the ISF 9 out of 10 times and I would even pick it out of the lot but that wasn't the point of my post though. There is a room for the ISF in it's segment and for their first entry to the field, they did a pretty good job. I think we can both agree on that and that adds to the point that the LFA might just surprise some people here, even for the price.

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Thats the thing, ISFs options are small becase most are already part of the standard features like the keyless entry/push button start, heated and colling perforated seats, 19" wheels, moonroof, etc... That is what I meant by comparing it side by side, feature for feature. if you add all the standard features on the ISF and add it to the M3 as an option to buy, the M3 cost more so you do get more with the ISF. And yes, i get the argument of "sports car enthusiast doesn't need bigger wheels or better sounds" but come on now, not everyone who buys an M3 will burn rubber every red light they hit. To some, maybe even to most, it is about the power it provides, the comfort and luxury. Sure both cars offers these stuff but the ISF does offer more for the money and that is Lexus' advantage and that is all I am trying to say. I admit that the M3 is a much better sport car (it hasn't been dethroned in it's segment in what, 2 decades?) and probably beat the ISF 9 out of 10 times and I would even pick it out of the lot but that wasn't the point of my post though. There is a room for the ISF in it's segment and for their first entry to the field, they did a pretty good job. I think we can both agree on that and that adds to the point that the LFA might just surprise some people here, even for the price.
Well, the M3 costs the same optioned out if you don't get DSG, which I'm guessing more people than not would do, and would actually swing some people towards the BMW over the Lexus' forced auto transmission, which is why I see the Lexus competing more with the older AMGs. Also, the limited choices for leather options and paint colors might sway people over to MB or BMW. I'm all for competition, and they did a decent job for their first time in the segment. The thing with the LF-A, which likely makes it a more serious competitor, is that it is not based on an existing model and is going to be their purpose built supercar. Unlike the IS-F which, as you pointed out, is laden with options due to it being a suped up IS built to compete with M, AMG, S/RS models. But the best part of the IS-F are the cool stacked exhausts... that aren't even connected. I guess there's no option for that:

 

[DNW]

Originally Posted by Roikins

But the best part of the IS-F are the cool stacked exhausts... that aren't even connected. I guess there's no option for that:

There goes your street cred.

 

[zjpj83]

Originally Posted by Roikins

Well, the M3 costs the same optioned out if you don't get DSG, which I'm guessing more people than not would do, and would actually swing some people towards the BMW over the Lexus' forced auto transmission, which is why I see the Lexus competing more with the older AMGs. Also, the limited choices for leather options and paint colors might sway people over to MB or BMW. I'm all for competition, and they did a decent job for their first time in the segment. The thing with the LF-A, which likely makes it a more serious competitor, is that it is not based on an existing model and is going to be their purpose built supercar. Unlike the IS-F which, as you pointed out, is laden with options due to it being a suped up IS built to compete with M, AMG, S/RS models. But the best part of the IS-F are the cool stacked exhausts... that aren't even connected. I guess there's no option for that:

They are hideous, just like the Ferrari California's.

 

[A Y]

Originally Posted by Roikins

But the best part of the IS-F are the cool stacked exhausts... that aren't even connected. I guess there's no option for that:

They introduced the faux exhaust pipe on the LS. 100 percent wanker design, and yet another reason why that company just doesn't get it.

--Andre

 

[gnatty8]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Well hell, with a few mods the M3 can destroy plenty of sports cars that cost a lot more. That wasn't the point though, the point is Lexus' first entry to the sports car segment is a success and it has turned a few heads. Lexus brought what most did not expect from them. Like I said, if you match-up the price of the M3 and ISF feature for feature, M3 will probably cost $10k more so to those who are looking for more comfort, luxury and speed for the money, Lexus is a good choice and probably the best choice right now. I believe it is still the cheapest choice and the one that could be discounted the most.

I agree, it turned mine, and I still very much like the look of them. Would never drive one, as I am very happy with my current car, but yes, they did a great job and if I had to drive a Lexus, it'd be that one.

 

[RFX45]

Originally Posted by Roikins

Well, the M3 costs the same optioned out if you don't get DSG, which I'm guessing more people than not would do, and would actually swing some people towards the BMW over the Lexus' forced auto transmission, which is why I see the Lexus competing more with the older AMGs. Also, the limited choices for leather options and paint colors might sway people over to MB or BMW. I'm all for competition, and they did a decent job for their first time in the segment. The thing with the LF-A, which likely makes it a more serious competitor, is that it is not based on an existing model and is going to be their purpose built supercar. Unlike the IS-F which, as you pointed out, is laden with options due to it being a suped up IS built to compete with M, AMG, S/RS models. But the best part of the IS-F are the cool stacked exhausts... that aren't even connected. I guess there's no option for that:

Geez, I guess some people are just there to bash a certain brand. I mean you talk like the M, AMG and S/RS series aren't suped up versions of their lesser car; ie: A-Series, C-Class and 3-Series. I think if they want to test the waters for interest in a Lexus sports car, suping up an IS is the best idea instead of throwing a new coupe out there with a V8 engine, those could all come later.

And again, your argument of "people will most likely prefer this option over the other" isn't the whole point. I have said money-wise, ISF is the bargain car out there. It is easy to say "if a car enthusiast really want a sports car, spend $20k more and get a GTR and forget all the heated seats, M badge and all these luxury items." It's understandable though, kind of like every time a new sports car comes out, it is compared to the GTR and it's price. "Why buy an R8 when a GTR will kick it's ass for half the price?" Like the GTR, M3 has become like Michale Jordan, every one is compared to him and has become the best out there so every one has to top them to get any recognition. I mean really, Audi and MB has been trying for decades and still barely scratched the surface so the ISF getting as close as they did is good.

I agree, the faux quad exhaust is somewhat stupid but it really isn't that bad. It is actually more customizable friendly with new kits as you don't have to worry about fitting in the exhaust. I mean hate all you want but it has taken a few sales away from the M3.

 

[Roikins]

Originally Posted by RFX45

Geez, I guess some people are just there to bash a certain brand. I mean you talk like the M, AMG and S/RS series aren't suped up versions of their lesser car; ie: A-Series, C-Class and 3-Series. I think if they want to test the waters for interest in a Lexus sports car, suping up an IS is the best idea instead of throwing a new coupe out there with a V8 engine, those could all come later.
No, if you read carefully, I was saying the LF-A has a better chance at impressing than the IS-F because it's a purpose built supercar, not a suped up version of an existing model. However, on that topic, yes, M/AMG/RS cars are suped up versions of existing models, but done properly -- they offer different luxury and performance options not available on the regular cars for the consumer to choose. Lexus decided to go the route of more is better, taking a loaded IS, putting on a body kit and big engine, and selling it as a "performance" model. Again, this reminds me of the old AMGs.

Originally Posted by RFX45

And again, your argument of "people will most likely prefer this option over the other" isn't the whole point. I have said money-wise, ISF is the bargain car out there. It is easy to say "if a car enthusiast really want a sports car, spend $20k more and get a GTR and forget all the heated seats, M badge and all these luxury items." It's understandable though, kind of like every time a new sports car comes out, it is compared to the GTR and it's price. "Why buy an R8 when a GTR will kick it's ass for half the price?" Like the GTR, M3 has become like Michale Jordan, every one is compared to him and has become the best out there so every one has to top them to get any recognition. I mean really, Audi and MB has been trying for decades and still barely scratched the surface so the ISF getting as close as they did is good.
I would say the argument that the IS-F is a "bargain" clearly isn't 100% true based on the pricing above since it's at most a $5k difference, whereas your earlier beliefs were that it would be 8-10k more, and it still depends on how someone wants to option their M3. Personally, I think people prefer the ability to choose what they want and don't want, and to have more choices, than being forced to pay for things they might not want.

Originally Posted by RFX45

I agree, the faux quad exhaust is somewhat stupid but it really isn't that bad. It is actually more customizable friendly with new kits as you don't have to worry about fitting in the exhaust. I mean hate all you want but it has taken a few sales away from the M3.
Well, that's just being an apologist for poor construction.

 

[RFX45]

The way you stated your statement, it seemed like you were saying the M3 was a completely different car that was made from scratch. You even said right now that the ISF is a just an IS with a bigger engine., which isn't true. it has an 8-speed auto ******, bigger brakes, better suspension, bigger wheels, new exhaust, etc... Are you really going to tell me the M3 isn't just a new body kit, bigger engine, better suspension, bigger breaks, new ******, etc... come to think of it, the ****** is probably the same used in the 335 (not sure though).

I don't know about picking every little option but I think having all the standard features is better than having barely any. I know I do. It also works with Nissan Altima coupe, most of their options are 1-2 at most and are a package.

My belief that the price difference is $8k-$10k also comes from the fact that the M3 coupe and convertible are an option M3 buyers could choose from. Look into those options and the price difference jumps but I know we are talking about the sedans. But if you really want to get to the nitty-gritty of things, you can get a much higher discount on the ISF than that of the M3 so either way, you will be paying much more for the M3. I just tried building a fully loaded ISF at Lexus.com and a fully loaded M3 at BMWUSA.com and the M3 sedan came up to about $70k ($72k with M double clutch ******) and the ISF came to about $62k, that is an $8k-$10k difference. Even the split back seat is an option that has to be purchased from BMW, the same with the moonroof. Yeah I know who cares about the split backseat but you got to admit, BMW is more expensive and there really isn't anything wrong with that, that is just how Lexus wins most of their customers, drivers enthusiast or not. The same with Infiniti and Acura. The Japanese car companies are just giving more for a cheaper price compared to their German counter part.