1. Styleforum Gives - Holiday Charity Auction 10: A full set of Aesop's Fables pocket squares from Vanda Fine Clothing

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    The 10th auction of the year is for a full set of Aesop's Fable's pocket squares from Vanda Fine Clothing. Please bid often and generously here

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2, 3, 4 button collars

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by freakseam, Aug 19, 2003.

  1. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Distinguished Member

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    thracozaag... c'mon man. if you're going to be sarcastic, you have to give some hint that you're doing so. i have no idea if double breasteds are trendy or not (they've been due for a comeback). so you think the neapolitans know alot about clothes? why? i'd like to know. i think they know alot about clothing construction. i respect that kiton suits are handmade and most neapolitan clothing is made mostly by hand. i applaud isaia and kiton for not using shoulder pads. that doesn't mean they know anything more about design than you or me, or anyone else.they know what they like, and i know what i like, and i hope more men get to know what they like for themselves rather than blindly following every fad from italy or england or wherever. okay? okay. [​IMG]
     


  2. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    That was sort of uncalled for. In any case, "functionality" is a chimera. What we percieve as attractive in clothing is nearly entirely a consequence of our socialization (I personally like the look of Manchu nobles circ 1900.)

    I could go into a detailed explanation why, give examples, etc., but please don't make me do that. I'm tired from an argument with a couple of morons in another forum.
     


  3. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Distinguished Member

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    "okay? okay." was uncalled for. you're right. i just wrote it to make fun of myself because i knew i was ranting. btw, as members of different societies, our clothes adapt to the functions and values of our society, hence the so-called "cell phone pocket" now appearing in many jackets and coats.
     


  4. Thracozaag

    Thracozaag Distinguished Member

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    Good lord, that one statment alone should tell one all one needs to know about your level of knowledge in clothing compared to the neapolitans.
     


  5. A Harris

    A Harris Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

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    I must warn you - with Thracozaag, Neopolitan clothing is almost sacred [​IMG] I can't say I blame him - the clothing that comes from Napoli is a product of sheer genius. I prefer a classic Milanese color palette (because it better complements my own coloring) but NOBODY can cut a suit like the Neopolitans. And the artistry they put into their clothing is unparalleled. An Oxxford may have more handstitches but hang it next to a good Neopolitan suit and it almost seems crude by comparison. The same goes for their shirts. As for the two-button collar question - I think two-button collars have a good chance of becoming a classic but in my opinion three is going overboard.
     


  6. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Distinguished Member

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    if you like a certain singer, do you have to like all their albums? if you like all their albums, do you have to like every song? i think not. i never meant to attack neapolitan clothing. i've never looked so handsome as the time i tried on an isaia suit and saw myself in the mirror. there are some things that are just a matter of preference; one vent or two, one-pleat or no pleats, etc... don't let anyone tell you your preference is 'wrong' because the current trend is side vents and flat front pants. don't buy two button collars just because their italian. the extra button doesn't add to the quality of the shirt. perhaps some of the fellas took this personally. i didn't mean for anyone to take my remarks personally, i just had to get something off my chest. [​IMG] in the future i will try to be more sensitive. perhaps i lack the necessary knowledge of clothes. perhaps i should visit old napoli to learn what i'm supposed to like--what i would like if i knew better.
     


  7. naturlaut

    naturlaut Senior Member

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    Personal remarks aside, why do you think Kiton and Isaia do not use shoulder pads?[​IMG][​IMG] Â Forum members, please back me up and name ONE maker that does not use shoulder pads at all. Isaia uses two layers of shoulder pads, each made up of a linen-cottonfelt-linen layer, where the center piece of cotton felt is a thin piece, thus it feels light. Â English makers use a slightly heavier piece of cotton felt, thus it feels heavier. Â Kiton uses different kinds of pads --- and if I were to send your comments to Marcello or Carmine at Kiton in NY I could only expect the worst.... Secondly, they do not design suits. Â They models were drawn, well, chiefly from the English, with slight modifications. Â In fact, I doubt any of the tailors even use pen and paper to 'design' their suit models. Â They usually fit their suits over a mannequin and make modifications on it directly to create the ready-made models you see in stores. Â As humble as we should in the area of sartorial arts (unless you are a tailor yourself with 40 years of experience), I think I will put my trust in their judgement (note: 'their' includes the Neapolitan tailors, the English tailors, and certain Milanese tailors --- we are NOT talking about Gucci). Â Now about your analogy on singers vs. tailors. Â I assume you are referring to pop singers. Â Please do know that modern pop singers usually have no participation in the creation of the music (writing one or two songs in an album maybe) --- try asking Britney Spears to complete some music theory assignments, let alone to compose. Â A tailoring house, on the other hand, though having tailors at different jobs at a workshop, actively participate in the entire process of the creation of one suit, even the choice of fabrics; and in the case of Kiton, the exclusive choices of fabrics. Â Look through a CD of yours and see how many different composers, arrangers, lyricists, not to mention managers and producers. Â And then look at your suit and see how many labels are on it --- ONE. Â Because a suit is produced from one place with one idea within one tradition. Â No matter how out-of-style you think double breasted suits are, they will keep producing them, because they ignore the trends of fashion and obey only their philosophy and tradition. Â To draw a parallel to your comments: you seem to be very much into pop and rock music. Are you well versed in all style of music and ultimately made a choice in what you like, or are you just being dictated by the endless rock stars and boy bands? Â Do you know jazz? Blues? 12-tone Serialism? Minimalists? Abstract expressionism? Â 19th century Romanticism? 18th century Gallant style? Â Do you know about Italian madrigals? Â I don't know them all either, so I will follow the footsteps of the masters from Beethoven to Wynton Marsallis. Â Please have a proper attitude when you visit Naples. Â You don't go there to see what you are 'supposed' to like. Â You can do that from textbooks. Â Don't waste your plane tickets. It's only 9 in the morning. Â I am sure other members who are more eloquent could write something more intelligent in response. Â Hope this will simmer down in this frightful 90F heat in New York ....
     


  8. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member Admin Moderator

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    I think that matadorpoeta's point was that one should develop personal style rather than blindly following trends or so-called style authorities. That in and of itself is laudable, but there is a fine but important distinction between being an independent thinker and being just plain contrary. It is easy to be the latter - every teenager goes through a phase when he (or she, but we all seem to be male here) goes through a phase during which he knows everything, and no-one else understands anything. The former is infinitely more difficult to become. It takes a lifetime of learning, humility - without which it is impossible to learn, and a profound understanding of one's own limitations. I do wish that matadorpoeta came off a little less dismissive of ALL things trendy and Italian - these are not in and of themselves bad things. Even your beloved soft-shouldered suits were trendy (and Italian.) not so long ago.

    For the record, I actually sort of like Britney Spears, especially circa 1998. I find watching her video of "Baby One More Time" infinitely more entertaining than was completing countless counterpoint and harmony exercises. But that is a discussion for another thread.
     


  9. Thracozaag

    Thracozaag Distinguished Member

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    Excellent points, LA Guy (and OF COURSE watching Miss Spears gyrate in a little school girl outfit is inifintely more pleasant than doing a 3rd species counterpoint excercise--I guess). [​IMG] Â I think the key word you used was "humility". Â Last time naturlaut and I visited the Lobb store in nyc we were witness to a gentleman (I use the term VERY loosely) ill-dressed, but far more importantly, completely ignorant of the fact that he was in the presence of high craftsmanship and art. Â Rudely picking up a pair of Lopez's he gruffly accosted the salesperson and sneered "You guys make shoes, right?" Â Needless to say, we left immediately. Â It ruined my whole afternoon. Â Â So, I get very steamed when someone has the audacity to proclaim his/her "taste" over an entire culture that has cultivated an art over centuries (like the Neapolitans have through the English). Â Â End of rant. Â I apologize.
     


  10. LabelKing

    LabelKing Stylish Dinosaur

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    While not completly versed in the details, and such of fine Nepolitain tailored suits et al I can say that the craftsmenship is almost sacred. Add to that the poise of the suits on a person or a mannequin, and one acquires a divine epiphany. Perhaps that is why Salvador Dali or the Count of Verdura all wore tailored articles [​IMG] . Also regarding Naturlaut's mention of musical styles; I am only familiar with Abstract Expressionsim as being an art mode. Such as the large canvas' with paint applied in a liberal manner characterized by the likes of Jackson Pollock or Mark Rothko. I understand the Gallant style which was a response to the fussy stylings of the Baroque, and of course 19th cent. Romanticism. As to Thracozaag's predicament per se of that boor in the John Lobb store I had a similar experience in a watch store. Apparently there was this rather loud man looking at various A.Lange & Sohne's, and when seeing the price he commented that at this price one could purchase a diamond Rolex. Rather makes one want to repeat Oscar Wilde's written quip as follows: "The only thing that sustains one through life is the consciousness of the immense inferiority of everybody else, and this is a feeling that I have always cultivated."
     


  11. Ambulance Chaser

    Ambulance Chaser Distinguished Member

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    This ignorant view, unfortunately, is shared by 95% of the general population. Â I have had the opportunity to examine Langes up close at the local watch store and they are exquisite. Â German watches have a solidity and heft that is quite different from their Swiss counterparts. Â In my completely subjective opinion, Lange is a Patek-beater in the $10K to $25K range, although only time will tell whether they hold their value as well as Patek. Look on the bright side: the man could have said that at this price one could purchase a Jacob & Co. watch that all the hip-hop artists are wearing.
     


  12. LabelKing

    LabelKing Stylish Dinosaur

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    Yes Langes are very well made solid watches. Their movements are very beautiful too what with the small gold rotor, and such. Some Pateks I don't like especially the ones from the 70's with the gold bracelets, and such. However I do have a soft spot for Vacheron Constantin, and Brequet.

    That Jacob & Co watch is quite ghastly. And yet ironically the dial reminds me of Ulysse Nardin's enamel dials in a way. I have also noticed that some rap people wear diamond encrusted Franck Mullers.
     


  13. A Harris

    A Harris Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

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    Lange is my favorite watch brand. I doubt I will ever own one (haven't got a spare 10 g's) but that doesn't keep me from admiring them. I seem to have a distinct preference for German watches, I haven't figured out why as of yet.
     


  14. matadorpoeta

    matadorpoeta Distinguished Member

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    "there is a fine but important distinction between being an independent thinker and being just plain contrary." i really don't see where that came from. is it really so shocking that i said i didn't like two-button collars? i was only stating what i'm sure at least a few others were thinking.

    "I do wish that matadorpoeta came off a little less dismissive of ALL things trendy and Italian - these are not in and of themselves bad things." please read the posts more carefully. i said from the beginning that i like italian clothes (my favorite soccer team is inter milan), and i like some things that are trendy. i've got several bold striped shirts and three-button suits to prove it. i wasn't saying "if it's italian, or trendy, don't buy it." i was saying something like, "don't buy it just because it's italian, or trendy." i don't think one should conform to trends, nor rebel against them. this reminds me of a television commercial for budweiser which aired a few months ago. a guy is standing in front of a mirror in a clothing store wearing a pink, form fitting, turtleneck sweater which obviously doesn't suit him. he is obviously uncomfortable wearing it. his girlfriend and a salesgirl stand next to him, and the salesgirl says, "it's italian." so his girlfriend, excited, says to him, "it's italian." in the next shot he walks into a bar to meet his friends wearing said sweater. everyone laughs at him and his defence, i believe, was "it's italian."  this is the last i'll speak of this issue, as by now, everyone must be sick of it (and maybe sick of me). i'll part by saying that culture, tradition, craftsmanship--none of these are sacred. the only thing sacred is truth.
     


  15. A Harris

    A Harris Distinguished Member Dubiously Honored

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    Absolutely not. We are all friends here and we value your input.
     


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