◆ The JIL SANDER & RAF SIMONS shopper thread ◆

[jwjp]

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

In the early 00s Raf made some really stunning collections with strong youth culture and futurist influences. S/s 02, otherwise known as "Woe Unto Those Who Spit On The Fear Generation . . .The Wind Will Blow It Back" is usually considered his best work. F/w 02 "Virginia Creeper" is my favorite, though, and I think S/s 04 "May the Circle Be Unbroken" is underrated.
S/S 02 looks like this:

Really bold, interesting stuff. Lately though, his shows have been a lot more tame and for lack of a better word, less Raf-y. More suits, knits, and other basic stuff that normal people might want to wear. A lot of people think he's sold out and become more commercial, but IMO the recent collections are still quite good. He uses more couture-like shapes, and relies less on what some might consider gimmicks, like the flares from s/s02, the forest presentation of f/w 02, etc. To me it seems like the people saying "Raf is dead" are usually only familiar with the really extreme stuff from "Woe Unto Those. . .", "Consumed", "Closer", etc. The more recent seasons are pretty similar to his earlier stuff, from the mid to late 90s. F/w 2011, "Rise of the Craftsman" is, to me, like a refined version of F/w 95, his first collection. Same focus on tailoring, school uniform influence, etc. I suck at embedding videos so here.

Ah thanks. Were his better collections seen as quite as revolutionary at the time, or is a lot of it hindsight? Like, did people really beast over the collection and buy it up immediately? It seems to me, as someone who has only recently become interested in fashion, that their are plenty of collections in the past (2002 raf, hedi-dior,09 undercover and junya, (i'm sure there are others but that's off the top of my head)) that are seen as really successful and innovative, "game-changing", but their don't seem to me any present-day analogues. Are we just unable to recognise it at the time?

 

[Zeemon]

nice thread, i will post photos of my own pieces (i think 10 or 11 items) soon, maybe fitpics

btw. here is another interview with him, published by german weekly newspaper "die zeit"
http://www.zeit.de/2011/04/Stardesigner-Raf-Simons/seite-1

he says that, that he was impressed by the band "kraftwerk" and the book "christiane f. : wir kinder vom bahnhof zoo"
then they talk about berlin, which is the setting of the book
and about berlin fashionweek, but he is not sure whether this fashionweek could become relevant internationally.
they they shortly talk about german designers like jil sander, karl lagerfeld, and wolfgang joop.
the interviewer asks him if he could imagine living in berlin, raf says that the climate would be too bad

 

[Keoke]

a preview of the ss12 now available at http://store.jilsander.com

 

[_yoo]

^cool, lvr, oki-ni, mrporter, saks are also starting to receive their ss12 stock, aloharag too but they've yet to post it on their website

a compilation of recent and forthcoming JIL & Raf pieces as styled by fashion magazines (apologies in advance for those who don't want them lumped together!) mostly culled from this blog

MORE ↓↓↓↓↓↓

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

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[ggoofer]

Some insane details on the SS12 JIL knits woven sweaters confused! see here

More from the runway (I think I actually like these a bit more)

More details from the SS12 JIL Collection

Don't plan on ever wearing that sweater.... I stopped by the Jil Sander Chicago store today: retail is $2800 for the short sleeve version. They had one and it did feel amazing (very durable). But at that price I doubt they will be i stock anywhere

 

[_yoo]

damn, that's some insane prices. Thanks for the info!
i looked it up, the only webstore that has it seems to be oki-ni, but it's already sold out (!).
I'm hoping this one isn't as expensive
I haven't seen any knit in the AW11 men's collection that costs over $2k, the women's collection seems to have quite a few, but men's knits are all under $1000 as far as i can tell.
I wonder who else on SF has a 2k JIL knit other than jet haha

 

[PabloDiablo]

damn, that's some insane prices. Thanks for the info!
i looked it up, the only webstore that has it seems to be oki-ni, but it's already sold out (!).
I'm hoping this one isn't as expensive
I haven't seen any knit in the AW11 men's collection that costs over $2k, the women's collection seems to have quite a few, but men's knits are all under $1000 as far as i can tell.
I wonder who else on SF has a 2k JIL knit other than jet haha

Price doesn't surprise me at all, especially given the detail of the knit. You don't see that everyday and I am sure even given the outrageous markup it was still probably very costly to make.

 

[andrewgreg]

i don't think it would be very costly to make it. at least, compare to the price.

I don't know why raf is doing the cheap plastic rain coat thing, burberry did it before.

 

[impolyt_one]

That knit is really interesting, I like it - but $2800 is pretty dear.

 

[Parker]

For anyone who wants a general overview of Raf's work: 15 Years of Brilliance
Not the best writing, but there are lots of images and videos of his past collections. Some of his shows are just amazing on their own.

I didn't really follow his work in the past, but I've like his recent collections where he's done more tailored stuff. I know people lambast it for not being as radical as his youthful rebellion stuff, but I think it's kinda subversive and cool in its own way.

 

[_yoo]

^thanks for posting that, it was posted on ln-cc too (wonder how much hapsical got paid for that ). another great source is raf simons redux, someday i must scan my copy and put it up somewhere.

^^re: that knit, just realized that it was in tres bien's jil ss12 showroom photo album, not sure if they have picked it up! (but if so, their price should probably be the most competitive among e-stores)

 

[_yoo]

If you're wondering about specific items from Raf SS12 and their price point, Seven NY's now defunct pre-order pages may be helpful (pictorial overview)

I might get either this or this (silver chain seems much easier to pull off than gold), if I can find them on sale, that is!

 

[_yoo]

Also, I've updated the main post with a more readable list of online stockists, any omission please let us know!

Also, has anyone saved pictures from the LN-CC Raf Simons Archive Sale? Looks like most links are no longer working...
I wonder if they deleted those pages because even they feel embarrassed about their prices for certain items

 

[sipang]

Here's my take on the whole "Raf is dead" thing, I get the feeling that most people that dimiss it as mere snobbishness or knee-jerk trend-hopping are totally oblivious to or unaware of what made Raf interesting in the first place. It's not so much a matter of liking or hating the recent collections, it's a matter of aknowledging the radical shift that happened a couple years ago and the fact that what made Raf "Raf" has somehow been lost in the process. Perspective is everything.

I personally don't have strong feelings against the 2008-2011 output (the collections as a whole largely left me cold but I still liked some individual pieces) but I do find some legitimacy to the statment. People need to remember that Raf earlier stuff was kind off anti (fashion) establishment, not only the clothing themselves but also in the way of doing things (non professionals and friends used as models, uncommon shows and show venues...) and in the audience targeted. Moreover, the cultural references (mostly musical) invoked in the collections helped create a special connection with that audience, something not unlike empathy.

"I started my thing not because I wanted to be a designer who was going to sell all over the world in the fashion stores. I just wanted to bring out some kind of language which was meant for me and my environment who didn't feel comfortable with the kind of look that we got presented."

Now I know this is a somewhat idealized vision of what it really was but I think there's some truth to it and it's key to understanding the backlash. If you take a look at the collections ranging from 1995 to 2005 or a bit later you'll find something that's missing from the most recent collections, there's an idea/ideal rooted in reality, there's a soul (for lack of something less corny), it's not as clean but it's alive. In comparison, 2008-2009-2010 collections appear stiff, sanitized and devoid of anything (btw, do the collections still have titles ?). You'd have to be ******* blind or dishonest to not see the tranformation that occured and it doesn't really matter what Raf says about it or that you love Fall 2010 to bits, it's just not the same thing.

It's a bit like if Hedi stayed at Dior after 2007 but suddenly decided to do KVA stuff instead, it might not be objectively bad but you might still die a bit inside. Again, perspective is everything.


In the end though, none of that really matters. People change or get tired, wells of inspiration dry up and that's fine, old Raf is dead new Raf lives on, the vision is dulled but the clothes are still sharp. If you can live with that...





And here's an older interview (2004) and an article (2002) to give a bit more context to my rambling.

RAF SIMONS - Infinite Ingress


Raf Simons didn't enter fashion via the typical route, but then Raf Simons is not a typical fashion designer. Perhaps more than any label today, his maintains a commitment to repressed youth -- not the youthful vigor fetishized by biceps-and-pectorals labels like Gucci or Versace, but real youth, in all its awkward menace. Simons' clothes contain the psychic spark of the ignored, the revolutionary potential that builds up during the isolation of adolescence. While other designers do little more than plunder a tired series of late 20th-century youth fads, Simons alone has stayed true to his roots. True enough so that each new collection can still register revolutions in contemporary youth culture -- as well as inspire new ones.


Craig Garrett: Did you go to the fashion academy here in Antwerp?

Raf Simons: No. I studied industrial design. Can you believe that? I don't have a fashion background at all. Sometimes I hear stories like, "I was playing with my mother's dresses and blah blah blah."
I come from a white trash family. My mom went out for work when she was 15. My dad went into the army when he was 17. I was playing on a farm with cows and sheep and chickens and a lot of children, and that's it. I was in college when I was young because my mom and dad really wanted me to do something with my education, and it was Latin, Greek, mathematics -- theoretical stuff. When I was 16 or 17 I felt like I really wanted to concentrate on something more creative. But I wasn't aware that an art academy or a fashion academy existed. I was in a stupid little village. There was no culture. There was nothing.
That's why the focus for everything I do -- still -- is so much on music. Music was the only escape. You could buy it in the local record store. We had this youth club with this bus that always took us to concerts. But galleries? Never heard of them. Art institutions or art schools? Never heard of them.
I found a book in school about architecture with information about what kind of studies you can do, and in the back there was information about industrial design. At the time there were only two schools in all Belgium where you could get that education.
I visited that school and I just immediately decided, "Yes, that's what I'm going to do." It's a five-year education. In the first year you start to experiment a lot with nature and natural forms, and then it starts to develop into ergonomic things, like a handle that has to be good for your hands. And it goes further, like a radio or a car dashboard. Then at the end of the fourth and fifth years you can choose the direction you want to go. At the end I only did furniture.
In the fourth year you had to do an internship for half a year in two different places. One you could choose, which was supposed to be a design school, and the other was a hardcore industrial design place. I didn't want to go into a designer's studio actually. I really wanted to go to Walter Van Beirendonck, who was one of the Belgian designers from the first generation, you know, the "Antwerp six". They'd just started becoming well known for what they were doing in the period I was having my education as an industrial designer. And I was really fascinated because yes, he was doing collections, but next to that he had such a strong visual appearance as a fashion designer, which was very different from anything I'd ever seen in fashion. He did a lot of things with furniture or masks -- things you cannot use -- just for the idea. I wrote to him because I wanted to do an internship in his place, but I was really scared because I wasn't coming from a fashion school. So I faked this whole portfolio, making, for example, a cover from The Face or a cover from i-D magazine, saying to Walter that this was what we had to do in school. But it was just what I did for getting into that office, fake fashion things that were very bad, I know. Then at the back I had maybe five or six projects from school, but the stupidest things, like an egg holder or something. And he was [pretends to flip quickly through pages] really not interested, and then the egg holder came [stops]. He was fascinated with the industrial design stuff.

CG: Wow. So did he take you?

RS: Yes, I had an internship with him. In the first period he made a collection named "Fashion is Dead." I'll never forget it. He made a newspaper, which was also fake: a front page with big headlines, a horoscope, perfume ads. But all this stuff had to be made, so I had to make him a perfume bottle. He was making a portrait with a mask, so I had to make the mask. We got along really well, and so after a couple months I could kind of work with him in the collection. Even if he was another generation from me, we had a really strong creative click at that time. And he took me to Paris. He had a presentation of clothes where the furniture and everything was specially done, and that's what I did. And that was also the period that some of the Antwerp scene designers, the six from Antwerp, started showing. Martin Margiela, for example, had his first and his second show there. And I saw that, and that's where the click came. Because I remember, when I saw Martin Margiela's show I was already like, "I'm wrong. I don't want to do industrial design." I suddenly started to feel that it was very isolated, industrial design. In school they were really mad with me because you were supposed to be in an industrial designer's studio. So a fashion designer? It was out of the question. They hated me for that. It was only after -- years after -- that they showed respect for it, because at that time it was like fashion [holds up right hand] and industrial design [holds up left hand]. Now we have all these crossovers suddenly. It's so much crossover it makes you sick.
Because I was choosing the Walter thing, of course they pushed me into an industrial factory. Really hardcore. I remember very well -- it was a producer of these carriers to hold 24 beers. We had to make it more ergonomic, but it was not at all about the form. It was just about the plastic, and they have to inject it into a mould. After weeks and weeks and weeks I realized, "This is not going to be the rest of my life. I don't want to do it. It's so isolated -- you just sit in front of your computer screen." I said in school that I was going there, but I wasn't going there. Every day I was taking the train to Walter's studio in Antwerp. That was like another world. It was wild. Walter's assistants were a group of five or six people my age, and he took us to the Paris or to the Venice Biennale or to Florence. Sometimes there was a presentation or a photo shoot. It was very social, which is weird because I'm not that social a person. I never go on stage, for example. I really don't like that aspect of the whole thing. I don't like public speaking. But I like social contact. I like it very much if it's more in a private situation.
And usually something clicks with the people you like. Like Larry [Clark]. He's such a normal human being. He's such a nice person. Just a very relaxed, nice person. Beecroft is maybe different [laughs]. But then in a way also not. She's an extreme personality, I find. Ten years ago I was already very interested in looks and people and fashion, and sometimes if I see someone, I'm like, "Whoah." You don't know the person, just from the look. But the first time I saw Beecroft in New York, I was nailed to the ground. She was sitting there in this fashion dress, this Comme des Garçons dress or I don't know, but sleeveless. And she has all these tattoos on the inside of her arms, these pin-ups. And I found it so strange on a person like her. To see that? It's like a trucker or something.

CG: They look like she got them in prison.

RS: And she saw that I saw them, although I didn't say anything about them. And she said something immediately like, "I was so drunk that night. And in the morning I woke up with all these trucker tattoos." [laughs]

CG: Have you ever collaborated with an artist?

RS: I did, years ago, maybe five or six years ago, one series of photographs called "Isolated Heroes" with David Sims. Actually, it's because of David Sims that I started to do my collection. I think David's photos were something totally deep. He brings in people who are not noticed by the world. For me it's a very historical approach, what he is doing. David is not thinking about which pants someone should wear to look good.
We became friends. We were speaking a lot. And what he was saying was what I was thinking, and what I was saying, he was thinking. At a certain point we made a book, although it was never published. It was never intended to do something other than just please ourselves and the people we worked with. It was also very related to an attitude -- at that time very new for the fashion world -- that had nothing to do with models. I still never work with professional models, because there is a very strong social/psychological aspect to the whole thing. I'm more interested in the language that comes out with the things I'm doing than making clothes for a hanger in the shop. I don't give a **** actually. If it would be about that I would already have stopped seven years ago. So I started asking people I saw in the street or people I knew already who I thought had an interesting attitude to connect with what I was doing and thinking.
And that was also David's attitude actually. For him it was more about that certain person he saw in the street, to bring that person into the area of fashion or culture magazines, more than choosing a perfect model and then putting the stuff on it, the Comme des Garçons shirt with the Yohji Yamamoto pants. When I started doing this project with him, I already had a relationship with the people we were working with for so many years. For example, there was sometimes a person we'd see in the street we'd never seen before, and we'd just ask if they would be interested to relate to what we are doing. We'd send information. They'd get in touch with us. And then we got to know each other. Usually it's a process of half a year before we really do something with them. Then, for example, they can show in Paris, but sometimes they also get involved with what we do. Like Robbie for example here? He was just a guy in the street, and we started to get in touch. And then he did a show, and then did some photos together. And now he's my manager, actually. I couldn't work without him. That process for me is the most important.
I started my thing not because I wanted to be a designer who was going to sell all over the world in the fashion stores. I just wanted to bring out some kind of language which was meant for me and my environment who didn't feel comfortable with the kind of look that we got presented. And we were interested in fashion -- we were following it -- but there was something that was missing. And that's how I started doing it. I think that's also why I started focusing on Larry [Clark]'s work so much. It's not so staged. It's real. I was in New York in February, and I rang Larry's bell. And I went up to his space, and there were seven kids. They were just sitting there and helping him. It's bringing you back to where you come from and how you were yourself. And it's probably also related to not wanting to age. But it's still also an investigation into what it is and how it is.

CG: Do you think your involvement in contemporary art has had an influence on how you design your label?

RS: I just want to keep it away from this typical structured fashion world, which is very defined. In the early beginning I booked some models once, and after the show they were saying things to me, and it was like they were aliens. They loved it! They were all slimy, you know? It's very good for your ego, if you're looking for that. I work with guys from the street, and their approach to what we are doing is so different -- but for me very interesting. Because at the end I am also concentrating on a language that is meant for a certain generation, and their response gives you a lot of energy. So the whole thing is structured very differently. I take a pair of pants and they just give me a critique on the pants. Sometimes they love it, but sometimes it's like, "Ha, I'm not going to wear that!" And I don't make them wear it, because it makes no sense to me, because they're not at all going to represent an attitude that I want. It's also very fascinating for me to find out why yes or why not, and how they feel about it. It's something I could talk for hours about.
Some guys we cast already five or six years ago, when they were only fifteen. The way they looked was street and baggy, and that's what they wanted to represent. Now years later, when they've had an education and they've started to have jobs, suddenly they start thinking over their whole look and their what they want to represent. So they start thinking over things that they used to critique when they came here in the beginning. Like a suit, for example. Now they call me and say and say, "Do you maybe have a suit that's small in the shoulder?" And that's really interesting for me. That makes it worth doing the things.
For Paris we are very structured like that. We have our own cast, and we bring them over by buses. It's a very social thing also because we don't just pick up a guy from fifteen on the street and say, "Come, let's do a video." It doesn't work like that -- definitely in Belgium that's a very scary thing. So we get in touch with people, and we give them a card, and then they get in touch. And then we send a bunch of materials about what we are doing, and if they are attracted they come here. Their parents come here and their sisters and their brothers come here. Sometimes we have all a whole bus that goes to Paris with one guy and like five family members with him. People sometimes say, "You're crazy to do this. It's more work actually." With a model agency one week before the show you just call them with these stupid fiches.

CG: So where are you going to have your show next week in Paris?

RS: It's in Place de Clichy. We found a garage, on the seventh floor. I usually prefer to show at places that are not too well known for the fashion scene. What disturbs me as a fashion designer is that you have very little possibility to show your work to a non-professional audience. Because the costs are very high. It's already hard enough to do one show in a season. Of course for surviving you have to do it in a professional area for a professional crowd: your buyers and your press. Which is sad because it would be lovely to do an additional show every year or every season just for everyone who wants to see it. That's the nice thing about art. People can just go and see it. With fashion it is locked in.


by Craig Garrett

Here are the Young Men, Well Where Have They Been?

by Jason Evans



For all its flirtation with “the revolution,” fashion is a pretty safe medium. While not one that necessarily shies away from left wing ideals of rebellion, independence, or even anarchy, fashion--both on and off the runway--is rarely willing to be more than a rework of post war adolescent styles. This raises the question: do rehashed fashion trends address any new issues, or do they just incite ignorance as they drift further from their original source?

Three years back fashion-designers-come-conceptual-artists Bless and Noki Custom decided to dump seasonal collections for one-off products. Come 2001 this was taken up as a “trend towards individuality” (i) by the fashion mainstream, another chance for fashion to have validity past the quick visual fix. A year on, and the bandwagon has been bogged down by buzzword badges and mass produced… pardon, customized denim jackets, all claiming to be “keeping it real” while failing to consider the implications embedded in the styles they plunder.

The fact that fashion and fashion imagery are renowned for their falsehood is perhaps what prompts a few maverick image makers to keep questioning what fashion can say, rather than what it does say. Thankfully Nick Knight, one the world's most influential photographers, is among those who continue to assert that fashion is a valuable medium, capable of expressing cultural views and values. “There is now an audience for political expression through fashion… much the same way that there was for an audience for politicized pop music in the Sixties” (ii). This sentiment seems to be shared whole-heartedly by Belgium fashion designer and cultural producer Raf Simons.

Raf Simons is an alien within his own industry. His shows break the codes that the fashion mainstream has recklessly placed on society's youth. His clothes often scream statements of a fighting spirit for a positive cause, evocative of cult films, pop music, and past generations. His images are “tokens of self imposed exile” (iii) when placed next to the glitz of Steven Meisel’s photographs for Versace or Avedon’s polished photographs for Dior Homme. Like Jack Kerouac, who, dissatisfied with “the best the white world has to offer” (iv), yearned to be black, Raf Simons identifies with his fellow outcasts. Rejecting the privileges of stardom, Raf turns his focus to the fans, paying tribute to a group within society that generally gets dismissed in a whirlwind of marketing slang by the “straight” world.

Looking at the presentation of any number of Raf Simons’ past shows will reveal a unique empathy for the music affiliated with these groups, from the idealistic lyrics through to the layered instrumentations. To say Raf Simons and his team of co-collaborators are inspired by the music used in their presentations is to make too fine a point. Questions such as, “What is the sound of the latest Raf Simons show?” are irrelevant; the shows are never reminiscent of your typical Wallpaper* CD selector.

While many designer shows try to fit the most suitable tracks around a pre-designed collection, Raf seems to use music as a starting point, from which his collection is built. Even the titles of each presentation are habitually re-contextualized from songs, all of which address recurring themes of forbidden identity, gender ambiguity and the subterranean. For instance, past collections include Confusion (New Order), We Only Come Out At Night (Smashing Pumpkins), and Radioactivity (Kraftwerk). One collection even featured tops with images of Richey Edwards, the missing Manic Street Preachers guitaris. Though Raf is not even a die-hard Manic fan, this doesn’t mean that he has slipped into avoiding the implications embedded in his chosen reference. Rather, once again, he went farther to understand these ideas through the perspective of the fans, “I love to see the way they lose themselves completely in their own world” (v).

His shows are generally in two parts; one, a presentation of the clothes, the other, a crossover video that acts as a mood piece/pop music clip. In his Spring/Summer 2002 show, “Woe onto those who spit on the Fear Generation… The Wind will blow it back,” Raf carried on from his previous Riot collection with the feelings of confusion and signs of silent protest expressed by “the post-millennium youth.” To signify this silent protest, white oversized slogan t-shirts and patched hooded jumpers enveloped models, while Arabic keffiyeh headdresses concealed their heads. Some fashion press kicked up a fuss, trying to tie links between the symbolism of the show and events in New York. Oddly enough, this was the same press that failed to comment when Top Shop, along with the rest of the fashion mainstay, revived the 80s—celebrating a decade rife with class warfare, race riots, and overspending. The fact is that Raf Simons Spring/Summer 2002 show was about idealism as opposed to nihilism. Influenced once again by popular culture, this time through Todd Haynes mysterious disease film Safe—in which upper-middle class homemaker Carol White is forced to live her days as an outsider, gradually growing allergic to the modern world around her.

While never failing to create aesthetically well-made products and beautiful environments, Raf Simons always maintains an awareness of the culture he references. Throughout his collaborations with writer Peter De Potter, photographer Willy Vandeperre, and installation artist Robert Gober; Raf Simons has avoided the nauseating glamour of fashion, instead conveying a real world away from the Paris catwalks. In many ways the work created by Raf Simons follows the belief of film-maker Rainer Werner Fassbinder, who once said, “Revolution doesn't belong on the cinema screen, but outside, in the world” (vi). Things going the way they are, Raf Simons should have “the revolution” sorted within the next few years.



Jason Evans is an Art Director at Studio Anybody



(i) Baron, Fabien
Arena Homme, Autumn/Winter 01/02
(ii) Knight, Nick
Taken from ‘A War Against Aesthetics’ by Jo-Ann Furniss, Showstudio.com
(iii) Hebdige, Dick
Subculture, Methuen&Co, 1979
(iv) Kerouac, Jack
On the Road, Viking, 1957
(v) Heath, Ashley
The New Raf Riff, Arena Homme, Autumn/Winter 01/02
(vi) Elsaesser, Thomas
A Cinema of Vicious Circles in Fassbinder, British Film Institute, London, 1976.

 

[1969]



Here's my take on the whole "Raf is dead" thing, I get the feeling that most people that dimiss it as mere snobbishness or knee-jerk trend-hopping are totally oblivious to or unaware of what made Raf interesting in the first place. It's not so much a matter of liking or hating the recent collections, it's a matter of aknowledging the radical shift that happened a couple years ago and the fact that what made Raf "Raf" has somehow been lost in the process.[/SIZE]

So I don't know **** about **** but what are the odds he's no longer designing his own label since moving to Jil?