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Which martial art is most effective for self defense?

Discussion in 'Health & Body' started by yachtie, Jul 29, 2008.

  1. adelphi

    adelphi Well-Known Member

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    m@T - who's your post directed to?
     
  2. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    I am on record above supporting Filipinos and their evil swingy flying sticks (Ive been hit with them a bunch of times, hurt like hell), so you need not worry [​IMG]
     
  3. retronotmetro

    retronotmetro Well-Known Member

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    ugh - this is still going.


    Let's just sticky the Bas Rutten video and be done with it.

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  4. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    I've always thought that that Bas Ruten video is hilarious. It also highlights some of the deficiencies of MMA for self defense. There are no headbutts, strikes to the groin (though this used to be allowed), knees or stomps to a downed opponent, found weapons, slams targetted towards the head, knees and elbows to the back of the head, in MMA. Some people might argue that strikes directed at the eyes are pretty difficult, but it is actually sort of harder to avoid kicks to the gonads than not. Every practice I've been to, during striking sparring, some dude always has to walk off a wayward kick to the nuts. And that is with a cup on. Same goes with strikes to the back of the head (even if you do not practice, if you watch a match, you can see how this is actually something to be actively avoided rather than something that is difficult to do). This is not even mentioning those attacks which guys are loathe to do even if they could (bite and pull, for example).

    I'm a huge fan of MMA. I've been a fan since I first watched Royce take UFC I, when it was closer to streetfighting, really enjoy the sport, and was even involved from early on, but... it is not streetfighting. That doesn't take anything away from it. But I think that saying that blindly thinking that MMA training is going to make you a badass on the street is a good way to get hurt. The best style for self defense (i.e. when the other dude is out to hurt you, not just fight you for glory, or whatever) is probably some very basic understanding of how to strike, wrestle, and do locks, combined with what one of my earliest teachers told me in broken English "Much better go crazy."
     
  5. Shraka

    Shraka Well-Known Member

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    *groan*

    I agree with you that training for points is bad because it limits your reflexes in a fight. My main point was that silat practitioners don't train for scoring points. Get it? They don't. m@t claimed that silat places a lot of restrictions on training based on what he read in the competition rules of a specific organization, and I argued that no matter what rules are used in competitive sport bouts (which many silat practitioners don't even bother with), the actual training is still hard and brutal.

    I have no idea about silat. I was just pointing out that one of your comments was incorrect, training to hit for points and avoid critical areas is bad for self defense, that's all I was saying.

    As for the target shooter example, notice I said "military-trained." This was meant to imply that he had received training in tactical shooting and the use of firearms in combat. There are indeed designated marksmen within the armed forces, as well as military and ex-military individuals who participate in competitive target shooting. My point was that a guy who has trained to kill with a gun can also use his skill for a non-violent sport (i.e., target shooting).
    And in WW2 (or it may have been WW1 now that I think of it), the military was trained with circular targets, which resulted in bad fire rates from soldiers. You do what you are trained to do.

    You say silat trains to hit critical areas. Fine, I believe you, but you seemed to be implying that fighting for points was a good way to learn to defend yourself. It's actually no good for learning self defense and may even be worse than having no skills as it might make you over confidant and get you into a situation your skills can't deal with.

    Likewise, a skilled silat practitioner who has trained to be lethal can dial it down for a "friendly" competition against his brothers in the art. But that doesn't mean he can't do what needs to be done in a real fight.

    I really can't explain it much more clearly than that.

    Yes, but you do what you drill. If you occasionally do a show fight, it's a lot different from drilling to show fight (or score points) which will result in you show fighting in the street (which may well result in you going to hospital, or worse).

    Ultimately the best form of self defense is learning to talk your way out of situations, avoiding confrontation or dangerous situations in the first place, and getting a rubber coating put on the soles of your leather soled shoes then learning to sprint.
     
  6. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    Fine, I believe you, but you seemed to be implying that fighting for points was a good way to learn to defend yourself.
    There is one big advantage about *some* point-fighting styles. The athletic competition forces people to train harder and to train at full force, while a lot of other fighting styles emphasise standing there and getting your technique right against someone who is not trying to hurt you back.

    Boxing, muay thai and so forth benefit from the fact that you are sparring against fully resisting opponents very early in your training, and give the student a lot of practise in terms of what will actually work rather than what will theoretically work.
     
  7. Shraka

    Shraka Well-Known Member

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    There is one big advantage about *some* point-fighting styles. The athletic competition forces people to train harder and to train at full force, while a lot of other fighting styles emphasise standing there and getting your technique right against someone who is not trying to hurt you back.

    Boxing, muay thai and so forth benefit from the fact that you are sparring against fully resisting opponents very early in your training, and give the student a lot of practise in terms of what will actually work rather than what will theoretically work.


    Boxing is good, especially as you can hit full force into some sensitive areas and not damage the other person due to having gloves on (and head gear with mouth guards). Pad work is also good as it gives you an idea of hitting something without wearing gloves. Another reason boxing is great is that it's straight forward and downright simple compared to some other martial arts. That means you don't have to think very hard, and can just get really good at the things that are most likely to be effective.

    The limits to boxing are it's lack of grappling, and kicking (although defending against kicking is more important in my mind than learning to kick particularly well). Lack of grappling can see you on the ground, and if your opponent kicks you want to know how to deal with it.
     
  8. Gradstudent78

    Gradstudent78 Well-Known Member

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    The limits to boxing are it's lack of grappling, and kicking (although defending against kicking is more important in my mind than learning to kick particularly well). Lack of grappling can see you on the ground, and if your opponent kicks you want to know how to deal with it.


    It's also limited by the fact that most striking is done with wrapped and gloved hands. If your taking it for self defense you really should spend some time learning how to strike safely without wraps and gloves.
     
  9. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    ya, I dont want to get too much into the boxing thing, since that seems to be all I talk about on here lately...but GS78 is right with that. Gloves protect the hands of the striker more than the head of the strikee. BTW my wrist has healed up nicely since the beginning of this thread, thanks for asking.

    It is also great for getting used to being hit and keeping-on-going. You get hit a lot. You keep going. This is great training.

    Absolutely it is a limited style, the one upshot to it though is that it will teach you to get a lot of power into the hands, and (gross oversimplification follows) as a general rule, in a fight, people start by throwing punches - and being able to get weight into the hands here can make for very short fights.
     
  10. Shraka

    Shraka Well-Known Member

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    It's also limited by the fact that most striking is done with wrapped and gloved hands. If your taking it for self defense you really should spend some time learning how to strike safely without wraps and gloves.
    Yes, which is why I mention pad work without gloves.

    ya, I dont want to get too much into the boxing thing, since that seems to be all I talk about on here lately...but GS78 is right with that. Gloves protect the hands of the striker more than the head of the strikee. BTW my wrist has healed up nicely since the beginning of this thread, thanks for asking.
    They do protect your opponent a little. The impact is spread over a wider area, it's harder to effectively throat jab, eye gouge, and pinpoint strike the temple. I agree though it's important to learn to strike without gloves.

    It is also great for getting used to being hit and keeping-on-going. You get hit a lot. You keep going. This is great training.
    Indeed.

    Absolutely it is a limited style, the one upshot to it though is that it will teach you to get a lot of power into the hands, and (gross oversimplification follows) as a general rule, in a fight, people start by throwing punches - and being able to get weight into the hands here can make for very short fights.
    Yes, it teaches you how to throw a real punch, and good footwork plus how to cover, which is pretty important.
     
  11. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    ya, I dont want to get too much into the boxing thing, since that seems to be all I talk about on here lately...but GS78 is right with that. Gloves protect the hands of the striker more than the head of the strikee. BTW my wrist has healed up nicely since the beginning of this thread, thanks for asking.

    It is also great for getting used to being hit and keeping-on-going. You get hit a lot. You keep going. This is great training.


    True. But boxing gloves also take away a lot of the cutting pain and jarring impact. I remember the first time getting hit with MMA gloves during light sparring after having sparred for a long time using boxing gloves, full impact. Big difference. Also, it is not nearly as easy to cover up when wearing MMA gloves or fighting barefisted.

    Just to be a contrary asshole, I have nearly always started a fight with either a roundhouse liver kick or a front push kick, except when I've have the chance to land a sucker punch.
     
  12. Shraka

    Shraka Well-Known Member

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    Just to be a contrary asshole, I have nearly always started a fight with either a roundhouse liver kick or a front push kick, except when I've have the chance to land a sucker punch.

    Might I suggest that perhaps you shouldn't be starting fights, but rather walking away at this point? [​IMG]

    The reason I'm against kicks is that if you are at kicking range, you're at running away range, which is almost always the better option.
     
  13. Matt

    Matt Well-Known Member

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    Also, it is not nearly as easy to cover up when wearing MMA gloves or fighting barefisted.

    ya, fair point. I train in 18oz gloves...they cover my whole head.

    Exception and not the rule and you know it....most fights start with pushing n shoving, then someone throws a punch and it's on from there.
     
  14. odoreater

    odoreater Well-Known Member

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    Exception and not the rule and you know it....most fights start with pushing n shoving, then someone throws a punch and it's on from there.

    The best technique for ending a fight before it's even started is the head butt. I've had dudes up in my grill pushing and smack talking, and a head butt to the face always takes their bark away.
     
  15. adelphi

    adelphi Well-Known Member

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    That comes 2nd to a kick to the nuts.
     
  16. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    That comes 2nd to a kick to the nuts.

    According to Bas, you should synch several kicks in the nuts in a row. I count three or four.
     
  17. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    Exception and not the rule and you know it....most fights start with pushing n shoving, then someone throws a punch and it's on from there.

    I know. Which is why I said that I was a contrary asshole. As for covering up, if you are fighting a power puncher, with those big looping punches, putting on the earmuffs, even with gigantic gloves, is just not that effective. One of those punches is just going to loop around and hit you behind the ear. That's when range becomes a huge factor (and you know that). Be outside or inside, but don't be in that no man's land.
     
  18. West24

    West24 Well-Known Member

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    if you know how to box, you should be able to hit a looper with atleast 3 straights to the face before he even knows whats going on.
     
  19. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    if you know how to box, you should be able to hit a looper with atleast 3 straights to the face before he even knows whats going on.

    Sure. If he doesn't know how to box. But I've seen plenty of matches where the power puncher just backs up his opponent and gets him into a shootout, and both guys could go down at any time. In those situations, I give the match to the typically more powerful brawler over the technical boxer.
     
  20. doctorfeelyg

    doctorfeelyg Member

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    Well, I can't comment on other disciplines but I can recommend Hapkido; which I studied for 3 years. Hapkido is a Korean martial art and incorporates a variety of techniques which you might see in Judo, Taekwondo and Kung-Fu.

    Hapkido is best known for its powerful joint-locks and also its dynamic kicks. From my experience I would suggest that a large number of Hapkido 'moves' are defensive reactions, designed to defend and control against an aggressive move from an individual or group. This ranges from typical drunken punches to knife or gun attacks. The fact that some of the best practitioners are women is testament to the discipline's focus on technique and being able to anticipate your opponent, rather than your physical strength.

    However, I would suggest that although knowing you might be able to handle yourself in a fight is always a great confidence booster, I have always found that being able to calm a situation down; to de-escalate someone's aggression, and not to let your pride get in the way, is by far the best form of self-defence (next to legging it like Usain Bolt after a particularly hot Lamb Vindaloo, that is!).

    [​IMG]
     

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