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TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever.

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. Raindrop

    Raindrop Well-Known Member

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    The lack of updates is unacceptable.

    You can say it's part of the model.

    Okay, there's no excuse for the lack of apologies, let alone threats.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  2. hokuto

    hokuto Well-Known Member

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    Drew, you've basically made people angry enough that they would rather ruin you than get their jackets.

    This is how I see the this ending based on what's happen so far.

    More or more people are going to try to initiate charge backs, the vast majority probably won't have any luck and that will make them even angrier.

    People who still want to wait for their jackets will lose their confidence and join the chargeback angry mob.

    While I don't think anyone will directly go the legal route, some people will most likely harass you and your colleagues the rest of your life like a debt collector.

    If you don't want this to happen come clean with what's going on with this operation and do your best to make amends, if you claim you still can fulfill all orders than report how many orders are left and how many are pending and have a trusted 3rd party like Charly actually confirm this is true.
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. iamacyborg

    iamacyborg Well-Known Member

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    As a general FYI for anyone who's feeling suitably petty, libertineseoul.com is available to register.
     
    1 person likes this.
  4. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    We wouldn't devote an issue to it "Rise and Fall of ToJ" is interesting to a few hundred people, maybe a few thousand, but our send list is over 120K, and tens of thousands of people open the newsletter - most of them more casual Styleforum readers and people interested in men's style, but not deeply invested and embroiled in forum politics and drama.

    I could see an article in the "Business of Fashion" model that might be interesting as a general read. After all, we have the makings of a Shakespearean tragedy here. As for my interactions with Drew, factually, there is not that much to say. He came on as an affiliate because we saw a promising model. He was personal friends with one of our moderators (they were friends long before ToJ), so we got in touch. He was an interesting guy - a lot of ideas, and a lot of energy. I saw a lot of potential in his business, and actually, over many conversations, offered to help him find representation so that he could increase his distribution network. He told me repeatedly that he was not ready for that step yet (to go to a wholesale model), a lot of it due to concerns about costs and the price rises that would be necessary. A few times, he told me that he'd like to build a factory.

    They he got tired of the business, and of clothing in general, and he wanted to open a restaurant, and got really excited about that venture. I was really surprised at the deluge of orders when he said that he was winding down the business, but attributed it to internet hype, an incredibly powerful force. Up to that point, there had been no complaints, and no cause for worry, other than the commonly known fact that ToJ used just a few, mom and pop manufacturers, and that Drew had never created a steady supply chain for materials and trims - instead, buying nearly entirely from jobbers. I suppose that it hindsight, the warning signs were there - a founder who was losing steam, in a business that relied on his energy, but it's hard to predict a fall when someone is riding high.

    This is not an uncommon story in entrepreneurialship. Often, the founder is not suited to the role of CEO, and then it's time for the founder to step down from an active role and allow someone else to take on the reins, scale up the business, establish infrastructure, etc... essentially, time for the ideas guy to step down in favor of someone who is a better manager.
     
    1 person likes this.
  5. Find Finn

    Find Finn Well-Known Member

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    I have gone through all my posts in this thread back to 8/2013 and the only thing I found which could be argued as defending is this. I wouldn't call the rest defending, there's a lot of infrastructure explaining and questions about, why he didn't do x, y, z, including getting a coperate shipping account, which would save a lot of time.

    The only other "defending" I've done is of Charly and the fact he is not at fault. If you find something, I haven't found let me know. :)






    A discussion about, letting go and not getting an ulcer, which I still retain, is the healthy solution.



    Also called it.

     
  6. B0Bs4g3t

    B0Bs4g3t Well-Known Member

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    All jesting aside, I will come forward and say I was a TOJ fanboy. Not that any admission is needed or that it will further any sort of discussion. I'm sure it will just seem like a defense. And In the grand scheme of things, this is trivial. We are on a fashion forum, for heaven's sake.

    My reasoning for support had been that in previous cut offs that I had been a participant in, things Had delayed and had been held up. But jackets came in. Nice jackets.

    My attitude of fanboyism, was followed by apathy for TOJ and those in the queue, but it has evolved to a sympathy and a real loss of respect for Drew (in particular for his most recent post).

    What I dislike is dieworkwear's claim that fanboys stopped people from doing things. Honestly, what that says to me is, "We are sheep and followed the advice of people on the Internet." You all are capable of making decisions on your own. You certainly shouldn't be relying on me, a 26 year old grad student that makes barely enough money to save and purchase a TOJ.

    If I led you astray I'm sorry. I had misplaced faith in Drew. But DWW, don't get up on a pulpit and claim, "I listened to other people and thus that's why we are in this mess."

    Make decisions on your own.
     
    6 people like this.
  7. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

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    What an utter bunch of crap.

    If you spend time arguing that X is true, and people half-buy X, then you can't brush your hands off and say "hey man, it's not my fault you believed X; you have to make your own decisions."

    Fill in X for any number of Drew-defending claims, such as jackets are actually going out and we just don't know about it (Find Finn's claim) or that people here will definitely get their jackets (your claim).

    You're making a black and white fallacy. I never said we're in this mess soley because of you. I'm saying partly why we are where we are is because ToJ defenders made it impossible to raise a riot in here. And guys like you kept saying you know -- because Drew Keith is such a good and honest person -- that jackets will be delivered.

    Seriously, fuck you. Don't spend time arguing X and then turn around and say "hey, it's not my fault you believed X. You have to make your own decisions." Instead of telling people they should take responsibility for their actions, how about your take some responsibility for yours?

    Again, nobody is solely blaming you. But if you can't see that social outcomes are multifactorial (ie have multiple and complex causes), I genuinely have no idea how you're in grad school.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
    10 people like this.
  8. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

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    I would pull up quotes, but the last time I tried to argue with you in this thread about the ToJ situation, it went nowhere. It's Sunday and I have work to do. You can believe whatever you want.
     
  9. iamacyborg

    iamacyborg Well-Known Member

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    Maybe instead of bitching you could do something about the problem?

    A good starting point would be refunding the person who bought your spot so you can dispute the original transaction with PayPal.
     
  10. Find Finn

    Find Finn Well-Known Member

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    Dude, aren't you in your late thirties? You are way to old not to accept fault for you own mistakes, it's something you do up to your early 20's and then you grow up.

    If you truly believed back then that something had to be done and legal action etc. should have been take, what stopped you? You could have requested a chargeback instead of wanting to sell your spot. If you had done that you could have started a movement, but YOU DIDN'T.

    Also I said "I think there are people out side of this thread, who have ordered, I can't imagine 100% of their client base follows/posts in this thread.
    ".


    Let me see some quotes, I want to see them.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  11. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    Why are you guys even arguing?
     
    18 people like this.
  12. Find Finn

    Find Finn Well-Known Member

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    Dieworkwear called us names.
     
    4 people like this.
  13. Spaghettimatt

    Spaghettimatt Well-Known Member

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    Edit: alright nevermind. Just trying to get away from the bickering.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  14. nahneun

    nahneun Well-Known Member

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    Oh my god, stop pestering the dude with inane questions. He's not part of TOJ anymore.
     
    2 people like this.
  15. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Well-Known Member

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    you ruined my life I hate you forever
     
  16. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    The dude has a bunch of money and time invested in the project. He is really frustrated, and is venting. I think that his comments are unfair, but whatever.
     
    3 people like this.
  17. B0Bs4g3t

    B0Bs4g3t Well-Known Member

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    Delaware
    Because I'm prideful and stupid. But yes, I'll stop.
    I will once again reiterate my once-loathing and now appreciation for you in this thread, and I will leave the running commentary to you.

    For what it's worth, for those who may have been swayed by my fanboyism (or what I contributed to), I'm sorry my blind faith in TOJ has lost you the opportunity to charge back your purchase. I won't sit here and try and argue my position back then. I'd gladly be the jerk here. But I did really believe in TOJ, and would have continued to buy from them if not for this fiasco. Dieworkwear, I honestly have nothing against you. I understand what you're saying, and I apologize if my argument against your claim was shortsighted. While I don't necessarily enjoy the hostility, I do understand your frustration with me. I'd like to think that if we weren't just avatars on an SF board, I might have had a better conversation with you.

    Sorry bros.
     
    6 people like this.
  18. Distorbiant

    Distorbiant Well-Known Member

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    @B0Bs4g3t that is not enough. I demand you take up tailoring and create me a leather jacket with your own two hands.
     
    13 people like this.
  19. B0Bs4g3t

    B0Bs4g3t Well-Known Member

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    Delaware
    bbl...
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. nyarkies

    nyarkies Well-Known Member

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    Big boobed lady?

    Well @B0Bs4g3t, I will be looking forward to the documentation of the services that you will provide to those who didn't get their jackets. :)
     
    1 person likes this.

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