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TOJ - updates on the debacle, complaints, news about other ventures, whatever.

Discussion in 'Streetwear and Denim' started by impolyt_one, Jan 7, 2011.

  1. LaymanX

    LaymanX Well-Known Member

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    Hmm.. let me rephrase. The TOJ I saw was a calf skin, but had no particular problems with it. It was as I said, okay quality. The veininess/dry patch/thin areas comment is a reflection of other issues from other clients that have arose in this thread. I was merely stating that the Vanson Daredevil unit I examined not only did *not* have any such issue, but was richer in person and had more character than the TOJ calf skin. It could be the nature of the secondhand TOJ calf skin, but it lacked the lustre and sheen that the Z150 had. If anyone else has experienced both leathers in person, feel free to opine.

    re: Construction disrepancy, all I can say is that it felt obvious once you hold both in your hands. One feels like it's a step up from a mall jacket in construction and one feels like it's going to outlast you and possibly your kids. I'm not a leather artisan, I'm just going by feeling here unfortunately.
     
  2. Spaghettimatt

    Spaghettimatt Well-Known Member

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    This is helpful and all but is really only functioning to make me feel badly about my choices. Sooooo shh please.
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. chupas

    chupas Well-Known Member

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    Law student, eh?
     
    7 people like this.
  4. Odd I/O

    Odd I/O Well-Known Member

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    This is a fashion forum. Style,design >> Construction. Generally speaking as long as the construction is fine people will choose the better design over the better construction. This why there are people who choose goodyear welted shoes like Edward Green/Gaziano & Girling (gemming!!!) over handwelted shoes like Vass and Enzo Bonafe.

    TOJ by virtue of the fact that Drew sources his leathers from the secondary market instead of directly from the tanneries is known to be variable in thickness and colour. Which brings up an interesting question. Who is sourcing the leather used by TOJ nowadays? It used to be Drew who could be trusted to choose good quality and/or interesting leathers.

    Dieworkwear did bring up an interesting point in the Vanson Daredevel thread about how the collar from most of the fit pictures is standing away from the wearers neck. Thread is here. I'm not sure how I feel about that.
     
  5. XVOS

    XVOS Active Member

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    First of all this clearly isn't a case of bankruptcy due to expenses exceeding revenue. If there is a bankruptcy it would be because Drew looted the company of moneys that were paid to it to purchase goods which the company had contracted to make and used those moneys to fund another business venture and never intended to purchase the materials and labor needed to manufacture those items. In that case it is malfeasance.

    Drew can do what he wants with his 'salary' but he can't just decide he's done making jackets and wants to start a restaurant, fail to meet his contractural obligations (which includes making a good faith effort to fulfill the time frame of the contracts) and still pocket the money from said contracts and plow it into his new business. In this hypothetical case (and I think we could make a good case for it) we can legally recoup our moneys from him however the hell we want. A common example of this sort of thing for laymen is how in a ponzie scheme situation you can get money back from outside the business through clawback lawsuits. If we can prove that this money couldn't legally go to the restaurant of course we can sue the restaurant and get it back. We can also sue Drew himself for the money, if he used the money to purchase a diamond ring for his hypothetical girlfriend, we can sue her for that. If we can prove he stole the money from the business it is dirty money and we can sue anyone we want for it. Bankruptcy rules don't apply in this case.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  6. LaymanX

    LaymanX Well-Known Member

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    Which is exactly why I said:

    Quote: I understand TOJ's strength was their refined designs.
     
  7. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    This would be exceptionally hard to show, particularly since there are, in fact, leather jackets, evidence of returned packages, etc....

    If Drew was dumb enough to funnel the money directly from one venture into another, then maybe. But if he "paid himself", and then used his personal money to invest in a different venture, then... yeah, good luck.

    I'm not a lawyer, but I've had a fair bit of experience structuring companies.
     
  8. XVOS

    XVOS Active Member

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    Do we really think Drew has done any of this? From my experience Drew is an incredibly incompetent businessman. He has made a good product and sold lots of it, but his business is run in a more slapdash fashion than most food trucks from what I can see. His accounting appears to be non-existant, possibly to an illegal degree. It is unclear whether he pays what he should I an SK taxes and he has avoided American taxes repeatedly. He doesn't have a reliable inventory or any inventory system. I wouldn't be shocked at all if he did things in a sloppy enough manner to allow us to win a lawsuit.
     
  9. XVOS

    XVOS Active Member

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    Also are we really sure Drew kept properly separated finances personally and for the business. Are we sure he legally paid himself a salary rather than just pocketing some amount t of money and avoiding taxes. We don't know any of this so these are all hypothetical questions to be asked not specific accusations, but from our general experiences with how sketchy TOJ is as a business do we really think if we went digging we wouldn't find something sketchy in Drew's accounting? It wouldn't take much to let us try to get money from elsewhere, especially those folks who Drew promised refunds and has then ignored emails and not given them.
     
  10. ter1413

    ter1413 Well-Known Member

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    Stop trying to apply US law/theory to an issue in SK(Drew) and globally(customers.)

    if you want to "win a lawsuit".......gather enough people to hire SK based representation so that HE/SHE can advise you what options you have. Outside of that, please stop with all of the legal speculation on what/how/why/when Drew did whatever he did with the ToJ $$.

    What will happen is another 5+ pages will be devoted to that and the needle will not be moved fwd.

    So if you want to proceed, stop talking and start organizing:

    Who is interested in proceeding?
    How many people(min amount) are needed to proceed?
    How much is needed per person?
    Who will be the point of contact?
    How will the $ be delivered to the point of contact to retain SK representation?
    Is there a possible point of contact in SK?
    Who will gather all relevant info from the "customers"? E-mails? Paypal rct? SF updates from Drew?
    How will the people who are proceeding with this option be assured that this will not turn into another ToJ saga?
    Etc. Etc Etc.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
    1 person likes this.
  11. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    I don't if if the bolded part is true, but if it is, he is one dumb fucker. There are very few organizations with as wide a reach, as intense a gaze, and as persistent a grip as the US IRS. Even real gangsters know better than to not pay their taxes. They (gladly) pay the IRS through their money-laundering businesses. Once the IRS has you by the nuts, the jaws of life could not pry them loose.
     
  12. peternorth

    peternorth Well-Known Member

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    If this is what you learnt is law school you should be suing the school.
     
  13. Gruff

    Gruff Well-Known Member

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    Long time lurker, first time poster. Just wanted to offer some thoughts.

    I seriously doubt anybody's going to follow through with a lawsuit of any kind. It will easily get prohibitively expensive and complex, given that this is an issue with a foreign company, foreign jurisdiction, etc. Who's going to take the lead on this? Foot the bill? Diffusion of responsibility is a real thing. I just don't see a lawsuit happening.

    The only real option here is to target Drew Keith's weakness: his extra-TOJ business operations. He clearly cares more about his stake in his restaurant than fulfilling his obligations to TOJ customers. He's threatened to slowroll troublemakers and has stated that bringing his other business into this is no laughing matter. It's obvious he's taking heat for his incomptence from some angle and he's realized that there are bigger stakes than TOJ.

    In light of that, people should probably keep posting about how Drew "Thief" Keith stole from them. Whether it's on his restaurant's website, here on SF, Reddit, the BBB or wherever - people need to keep getting the word out. It seems to get the most response from him and it's really all anybody can do now.

    See, it's not clear that he's realized his business reputation is the most valuable thing he has and will follow him for the rest of his life, especially for the kind of business he's interested in: entrepreneurship. Whether it's a restaurant, a clothing line, or some other venture, he's going to continue to need business partners and investors. He won't get funding with a reputation for being a thief.

    So keep hammering him in various fora and get the word out that, at best, he's an incompetent businessman who takes money from people without fulfilling purchases. Consider that, as much as it sucks, your money's probably gone or it will be years before you get what your purchased. With enough noise, you can damage Drew Keith's reputation enough to end his business activities and make sure he never rips off anyone else again.

    His business reputation is the most valuable thing he has - don't be afraid to destroy it. After all, he had no qualms about taking your money for nothing, right?

    Don't be afraid of his threats, either. Let him talk about slander/libel. Hell, let him go to the SK cops. I'm sure they'd love to hear about how he's taken money from people and left dozens or hundred of unfulfilled obligations. And remember, he's got to pay for legal representation, too, so I hope he's got the cash on hand or that threat is going nowhere - lawyers don't work for free.

    Finally, cut the talk about feeling bad for Drew's business partners. You know nothing about them. They could be stand up guys or total scumbags. They're not really relevant. All that matters is your money is tied up in a South Korean restaurant - maybe not legally, but at some level you guys with outstanding orders own a minority share of that business until you get your product. Until you receive your order and the transaction is complete, don't feel bad about shitting on what belongs to you.

    Good luck, guys.
     
    21 people like this.
  14. Gruff

    Gruff Well-Known Member

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    Edit: sorry, double post.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
  15. ter1413

    ter1413 Well-Known Member

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    +1
     
  16. XVOS

    XVOS Active Member

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    Avoiding import duties is avoiding taxes and he has purposefully avoided import duties on jackets for people iirc.
     
  17. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    This. I wouldn't do it. It's a lot of pain for very dubious gain.
     
  18. Stillmaticbeat

    Stillmaticbeat Well-Known Member

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    pretty much the smartest thing i've read in the last 100 pages of this thread. one thing to note also is you're probably never getting your jackets/money back voluntarily. you'll have to meet drew face to face and take your jacket/money from his hands. it really is the only way. post some selfies at libertine when you get there.
     
  19. dieworkwear

    dieworkwear Well-Known Member

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    Going to vent.

    Part of the reason why we are where we are is because so many ToJ defenders made it difficult to voice frustration in this thread. Any time someone talked about how frustrated they were with this situation, someone would pop up and make a comment about how people were just cry babies, struggle kids, or some other nonsensical line. This is all despite the fact -- as I've brought up before in this thread -- that there's a long history of over-hyped companies ripping people off on internet forums. You don't have to be an evil person to rip people off. You can just get yourself into some trouble and not handle your business correctly.

    Next month, we're at a two year delay on some orders. Who knows if things would have turned out differently if ToJ defenders (e.g. @Find Finn, @cyc wid it, @iamacyborg, @B0Bs4g3t, and @Dbear) didn't hop in with their comments, but it would have been a lot easier to take action when people were at a one year delay rather than two.

    It took about a six month delay for people to start freaking out over Ambrosi, and that was with bespoke pants (meaning, they're actually handmade, with a fitting, not machine-made MTM items, despite people in this thread talking about how it takes forever for a custom, MTM to be produced). It's taken 3x that length of time for people to be able to bitch in this thread without hearing someone defend Drew.

    /vent
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2015
    6 people like this.
  20. LA Guy

    LA Guy Opposite Santa Staff Member

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    Hard to prove, and the recipient, not the shipper, is responsible for import duties. If anyone asked him to falsify documents, and he did so, both parties could be in deep trouble. Also, a very different beast from the IRS. If as an American citizen, he has attempted to evade American income taxes in any way, that's when you really have to be worried. That means - all income properly reported (or over-reported, the IRS is cool with that), and all the tax owed is paid.
     

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