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Tira and Clag Discuss #$&% Civilly I

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by Claghorn, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    Well, in the sense that fashions change several times a year (at least for those who devoutly follow them. My GF for instance.) then yes I suppose it does change faster than ideals of beauty. But those too change drastically. Take the Greeks and (to a certain extent) Romans. They emphasized the male body as the embodiment of beauty and perfection. We in this day and age, for some reason, tend to think of the female body when we think of those two descriptors. Of course, there is 2500 years separating out two societies, so I may have just made your point that ideals of beauty change more slowly. lol
     
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  2. Tirailleur1

    Tirailleur1 Well-Known Member

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    Clags is right. This is why I btiefly mentioned Hedi Slimane's influence in menswear. Because of Diot Homme, men wanted to be thinnet hence the obsession with skinny suits and ties. It actually pretty ridiculous in Asia (dior Homme's biggest cash grab) t hat the men would starve themselves to wear the clothes

    Karl largefeld lost a 100lbs so he can wear Dior Homme

    Also the idea of something not being flattering on the body had never stopped it from being the standard.

    Forgive any typos. I am typing fron my phone
     
  3. black_umbrella

    black_umbrella Well-Known Member

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    There's probably a study where straight women and gay men rate attractiveness of men. Would be interesting if there was a correlation. I would assume that there would be.
     
  4. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    I dunno, they are two different cultures that came out of different backgrounds and practical necessities. I would imagine there would be some differences that are notable. But then again, we are both talking about the attractiveness of males, so there would HAVE to be some overlap.
     
  5. black_umbrella

    black_umbrella Well-Known Member

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    The only study i found doing a quick search indicated that men have a strong consensus on attractiveness and there was little consensus with women. I wonder if straight men and gay men would have a consensus on male attractiveness...
     
  6. Claghorn

    Claghorn Well-Known Member

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    I just spent half an hour on JSTOR and EBSCO and found little.

    Edit: Umbrella, hook a fella up with a citation.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  7. black_umbrella

    black_umbrella Well-Known Member

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  8. black_umbrella

    black_umbrella Well-Known Member

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  9. black_umbrella

    black_umbrella Well-Known Member

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    My interpretation of this is that most women apparently use visual cues as only part of the attractiveness equation whereas men use visual cues much much more.

    The take home:

    We are dressing for other men.
     
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  10. Claghorn

    Claghorn Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Pulled from an Archives of Sexual Behavior article from 2010.

    It's less about how we dress and more about how they design. And even then, they are designing towards an ideal. Which will be influenced by trends in sexual attraction among many, many other things.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2013
  11. Caustic Man

    Caustic Man Well-Known Member

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    Duh! [​IMG]

    Women, I think, obviously dress for other women too.
     
  12. Claghorn

    Claghorn Well-Known Member

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    Were we to keep on doing this, recommendations? Less talk? More pictures? More swears? More swears.

    On a different note, perhaps we're over thinking the short jacket thing. It's more likely that he pulled from Asian tailoring (I asked around today, and Korean tailors, or at least some of them, have been cutting jackets that short for a while) or that he was just like "fuck it, short jackets" than the trend be indicative in some shift in our perception of male attractiveness.
     
  13. Academic2

    Academic2 Well-Known Member

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    What an interesting thread. Thanks for starting it.

    It raises a question that interests me very much: at what point would you stop holding on to your notion of what looks good in the face of a growing majority that says otherwise? It’s not a question about style per se, but how the individual relates to style (or fashion) change.

    For example, regarding suits, I’ve resisted the trend toward what look to me like jackets and trousers that are way too short, even though it means going MTM. I wouldn’t want to be the last person on the planet to dress like I do, however. But I don’t know at what point I’d capitulate.

    Cheers,

    Ac
     
  14. sugarbutch

    sugarbutch Well-Known Member

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    Lapel width, hem length, closeness of fit, all of these are variables that have been played with before, and as long as there is a suit paradigm, they will continue to vary. The more interesting question, IMO, is whether wearing a suit at all will become anachronistic. Honestly, it's not a huge issue for me since I'm already over the hump into middle age and my leeway to wear what I want will only increase. But will everyone wearing a suit come to be viewed approximately as Tom Wolfe is today?
     
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  15. in stitches

    in stitches Well-Known Member

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    just so no one calls me a liar, i have read this thread. i will comment at a later time.
     
  16. Tirailleur1

    Tirailleur1 Well-Known Member

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    I am with you here. like the album format, people keep predicting the suit's demise and it just doesn't seem to happen. The issue stems from how limiting the language of western mens clothing is. Because of this the suits tends to attach itself to any evolution takes place within western culture. A new silhouette might be introduced sometime in the future, but I expect to see some from of suiting (may it be in blazer or some other casual iteration). Maybe all that might change with the globalization.
     
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  17. Veremund

    Veremund Well-Known Member

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    I've assumed that designers had seen how grossly oversized the typical, poorly-dressed man's suits were and decided to make slim tight jackets the new fashion, thereby resulting in having the the average joe size down his clothing to get closer to his correct size. I believe the man on the street today is less likely to be in an oversized jacket than he would have been 5 years ago.
     
  18. Claghorn

    Claghorn Well-Known Member

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    That would account for how fitted the jackets are, which cycles pretty regularly across decades. It probably wouldn't account for the length.

    Kobe!

    Concerning the demise of the suit: yes, there has been a push towards casual. But the internet provided some sort of counter push with the suit as a medium of either expression or as a hobby. I imagine the former is the more powerful force. Alas.
     
  19. Victor Elfo

    Victor Elfo Well-Known Member

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    Now, that's something that I can contribute.
    Globalization? Today we live in a deglobalization, as many (many) scholars identify the 2000's crisis as the turning point on the process of liberalization that had been accelerated after the end of the bipolar conflict. What you're getting at, Claghorn, is known in the academy as a process of change in the international order, which starts with the economic aspect. As the Asia's GDP becomes larger and larger, the other power aspects increases together. So, the influence that you're getting at, Claghorn, is a good hypothesis, IMO.
    The demise of the suit, if it's going to happen, will be caused by a major change in the international order. For example, if China does becomes an hegemony, we'll probably have as much cultural influence as we've now from the USA. But, hey, an oncologist sees cancer.
    Nice thread, BTW. I'd only be careful with the use of the word "evolution" when it comes to social matters, it's a thesis that has been abandoned after the Second World War and it's viewed as xenophobic today, but I know that you didn't mean it that way.
     
  20. in stitches

    in stitches Well-Known Member

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    Holy fucking shit I just typed out an essay and chrome crashed. I want to fucking kill some one.
     

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