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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    As between those two watches, I'd certainly choose the handwound. But in the great wide world of $8-10k watches, I'd almost certainly make a different choice. The Portuguese (and from here on I refer to the handwound only) is a beautiful watch possessed of elegant design features. My issue is with its dimensions. Others will no doubt quickly enter a galssy-eyed trance and rhapsodize about the historical entecedents which inform the present day rendition. I'll happily leave that to them and simply make some comments about the watch itself, since it is the watch you would be purchasing.

    44mm is big for a dress watch, IMO. Really big. In a sports chroograph or a dive watch, a case that big is more than okay. But for me, a dress watch of those dimensions simply doesn't make sense. The substantial case diameter is visually exacerbated in the Portuguese by three factors: 1) short lugs, 2) thin case and 3) thin bezel. The end result is an "all dial" watch that looks even larger than its immodest dimensions suggest. It takes a hefty wrist indeed to wear the watch and not have it appear that the watch is wearing you. A pancake on a strap is a look that will work for some, but not for others.

    So if the goal is to get a Portuguese, the hand-wound is definitely the one to get, IMO. But if the goal is to get an elegant dress watch in that price range, there are many more appealing options out there. And yes, the foregoing reflects my personal and entirely subjective aesthetic preferences. Though I'm sure that will not deter the usual suspects from telling me that I am "wrong".
     
  2. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if Patek would ever spell it out, but I think the fundamental reason why they are migrating away from the Lemania ebauche has to do with the competitive edge that comes with deploying an in-house movement. Rightly or wrongly, collectors and enthusiasts attach a premium to whether a movement is in-house. Also, as in-house chronographs become more common at lower price points, an ebauche (no matter how fine and sophisticated) becomes a harder and harder sell.

    I hear some say that people don't really care about whether movements are in-house. But I think the market demonstrates otherwise. Companies tend to know what their customers want and high-end watchmakers have been significantly ramping up in-house development over the past ten years. Some of this has to do with the fact that ETA is no longer providing kit versions of their ebauches, forcing companies to buy already-assembled movements. But that only affects watches under the $5k price point (give or take). Patek sells its manual-wind chronograph (without other complications), employing the CH-29 in-house movement, for over $60k.


    It would certainly be my pick. At the end, it really depends on what you're looking for. If, despite everything you've learned, you still like the Port. Chrono better--go for it! But if you want a Portuguese, or if you care about having an interesting movement, or if you are aiming to collect classics, or if you care about future value, the Handwound is the better choice. Also, I think it looks infinitely better. The case and movement are nicely harmonized.

    In contrast, the rarely depicted side-view of the Port. Chrono:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  3. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    You are right that the Portuguese is very large for a dress watch. But for what it's worth, most models (including the Handwound and 5001) are 42mm, not 44mm. I also think the thin bezel, thin case, and short lugs are exactly what make a larger watch more elegant and wearable. You would otherwise have a much chunkier looking watch.

    I wear my 5001 daily, with suits and even my dinner jacket. I've never felt conspicuous about it. But then, I think when you love your watch, it somehow always feels appropriate. :)
     
  4. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Foo - Wristwatch Annual 2010 (the only volume I have with me at the office) lists the Portuguese handwound at 44mm, the 5001 at 42.3mm and the chrono at 40.9mm in diameter, respectively.

    I've tried on both the handwound and the 5001 as recently as two weeks ago and those listed dimension are in accordance with my perception of the watches on the wrist. The 5001 sits just at my personal upper limit for a dressy watch to be worn with a suit (42mm) and is better visually balanced to my eye by its thicker case (~13mm versus 10mm for the handwound). I could happily wear the 5001 with a suit, but the wider and thinner hand-wound had too much pancake effect to my eye.

    I agree that shorter lugs make a larger watch more wearable - less likelihood of lug overhang and such - but as with a thin bezel, they serve to visually emphasize width. That can be good or bad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  5. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Huh, you're absolutely right--it is indeed 44mm. Odd. The Jubilee was 42mm.

    On the thinness of bezels: I always prefer less metal showing. To the extent a thin bezel makes a watch look bigger, due to emphasizing the dial, it also makes it look more streamlined and low-profile. I would rather have a larger-looking, elegant dress watch than a smaller-looking, chunky one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  6. Newcomer

    Newcomer Well-Known Member

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    I am kind of in between on that. I think that the previous-gen GO PML's are nicer than the new ones. I think it is more of a balance issue for me.

    For example:

    [​IMG]

    VERSUS

    [​IMG]

    Although I typically like thinner bezeled watches, in regards to thickness, I feel like a thin bezel can often make a watch look slab-sided.

    And as an aside, I wonder if the thin bezeled look is a bit on the "trendy" side of things?
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  7. Belligero

    Belligero Well-Known Member

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    The post on originality came to mind when I saw this watch:

    [​IMG]

    A Speedmaster "homage", you say? I'd agree completely, especially since the dial is identical except for the logo.

    The only snag is that this one is said to have been introduced in 1954. :eh:
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  8. DLJr

    DLJr Well-Known Member

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  9. Newcomer

    Newcomer Well-Known Member

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    You know, I originally liked the newer one... but I have yet to see a picture on the wrist that was very flattering! Some examples:

    From Cylon:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    And another:

    [​IMG]

    And this is coming from someone who was INCREDIBLY close to picking one of these bad boys up. I was very disappointed when I actually got to try one "in the metal."
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  10. DLJr

    DLJr Well-Known Member

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    I blame the over growth of hair and then the arm waxing.

    In general I don't rely on wrist shots of others, but I agree it looks disappointing in those. I enjoyed the look of it on my wrist, but perhaps because I wanted to, but I'll have plenty of time to change my mind over and over again as I reevaluate my choices endlessly. Related, I'm glad I waited on the MUT Moon, after several try ons, I decided something was missing for me as far as the case/lugs went (and I've loved every online wrist shot I've seen of it). Something just felt lacking, despite trying to convince myself I still loved it; just not for my wrist I suppose. I've moved on to Reversos and the PML's, perhaps one of each [​IMG]
     
  11. Dino944

    Dino944 Well-Known Member

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    You do make a very compelling argument for the handwound Portuguese. While I'm aware of their history behind the original Portuguese and the quality of the handwound model, personally the Portuguese line never really called out to me. My former IWC AD frequently tried to sell me the Port chronograph, but it just didn't do much for me. I always preferred the original Flieger and Doppel Chronographs, particularly when on the original bracelet with "pyramid" shaped links. That bracelet was simply fantastic (I didn't like the revised version). But the use of the Valjoux 7750 always prevented me from closing the deal. Knowing it used cams rather than a column wheel, and it also powered dozens of watches that could be purchased for far less always bothered me. Hence I've never purchased an IWC. If I were to get an IWC, the one that appealed to me most was produced in the 1990s, the Novecento Perpetual Calendar. Something about a perpetual calender in a rectangular case just appealed to me. Years ago, a client from Italy had one and it was quite impressive.

    I agree that with Patek developing and using their own inhouse chronograph movements, others will follow suit. For AP and VC to be competitive, they will have to have their own in house movements as the public's perception is that inhouse movements are better. Furthermore, when one is spending litterally tens of thousands of dollars on a watch, there may be a strong desire to have exclusivity and feel that the movement was made specifically for your watch rather than sharing it with other brands, even if those brands are very high end like AP and VC. In addition as you suggested, an inhouse movement can be tailored to a brands specific needs in terms of both function and beauty.
     
  12. ahdaeeeee

    ahdaeeeee Well-Known Member

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    I just went to look at the Portuguese Chrono, Handwound and the 7 days reserve. Boy those watches definitely looks much bigger in real life. I did not know it was actually a 44mm, I have always thought they were 42mm, guess I should've done my homework. Even at 42mm I still think they are a little bigger for my wrist. I would like to hear the other many more appealing options for the dress watch if you don't mind that is.

    My reasons for wanting IWC for so long is because the 1) brand image it has 2) the history and the value of the watch 3) the Portuguese are just beautiful! But hey, I am not dead on certain on buying it, still keeping my options open.


    Glad to see that we agreed that the handwound is the Portuguese to go for. Those things you mentioned are definitely factors to be considered, movements, classics or even future value. Don't all 3 have to be considered when buying a watch? I mean I certainly would...
     
  13. Newcomer

    Newcomer Well-Known Member

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    What size are your wrists if you don't mind me asking? Mine are a hair under 7", and I found that the PML just looked a little bit too big. I love my MUT Moon, but I understand why it may be a bit too cold for some. I also think that the lug width may be what was throwing you off? Strangely, for a 39mm watch, the lug width is 21mm! The combination of the black alligator strap with the case I find to be a bit daunting. I just ordered a gold ostrich strap from Camille Fournet, so I think that will make me much happier.

    And the Reverso is a lovely, lovely watch. I would really like to pick one up some day. Fortunately for me, I am attracted to the ultra thins more than the complicated ones!
     
  14. rnguy001

    rnguy001 Well-Known Member

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    New IWC chronograph. A little expensive, but seems to be very nice. IWC in house chronograph movement as well..

    [​IMG]
     
  15. rnguy001

    rnguy001 Well-Known Member

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    I like the newer PML too. Have to see it in the metal though, thanks for the insight into how it wears on the wrist.

     
  16. fides

    fides Active Member

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    Kind of scared to post in the plethora of Pams, and Rolex`s here but here goes nothing. This is my my 1971 Omega Deville, .711 caliber. Its my best friend, my beast, and my classy woman in one. Wear it everyday even though its supposed to be a dressy watch. Love these vintage thin-o-matics. I find it absolutely stunning and simple, and I think thats all that matters :D Thanks.

    [​IMG]
     
    4 people like this.
  17. Concub1ne

    Concub1ne Well-Known Member

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    Well, looks like they fixed everything I might have objected to on the porto chrono in one fell swoop. As long as they didn't up the price by 50% or make it 18mm thick or anything equally dumb I don't see how I'm going to avoid getting one eventually.
     
  18. Newcomer

    Newcomer Well-Known Member

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    They upped the price by a little over 50%. I think it will be retailing for just shy of $13,000. Only 14.5mm though, and 42mm in width.
     
  19. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    Hate to break it to you, but it is much more than 50% more expensive. Closer to 100% more. The retail price for the steel version is $14,400. That is actually a fair price for an in-house, column-wheel chronograph with a flyback function.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2013
  20. Concub1ne

    Concub1ne Well-Known Member

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    I thought they'd just brought it in house. The columnwheel and flyback complication lend some legitimacy to the pricehike.
     
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