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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by gdl203, May 20, 2007.

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  1. rnguy001

    rnguy001 Well-Known Member

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    Dp
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2013
  2. david3558

    david3558 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks man - haha, guess you'll just have to wait :satisfied:
     
  3. nttdocomo

    nttdocomo Well-Known Member

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    Lovely! What strap is it?
     
  4. Dino944

    Dino944 Well-Known Member

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    No, not all Portugese models use an in house movement. Some have used JLC movements and the chronographs have used Valjoux 7750s. An inhouse movement does not mean a watch is more accurate. However, in today's market place many people prefer an in house movement. Some may feel its more exclusive and getting more value for what you pay, (if spending x amount on a watch, do you want what's inside to also power a bunch of less expensive pieces also?). But some great watches have used movements from other companies. Patek and VC have used Lemania bases in chronographs such as the 5070, 3970, and Historique and Malte Chronographs. In addition, the movement in PPs first Jumbo Nautilus, APs RO Jumbo, and VCs 222 were all based on JLCs cal 920. So I personally would not be against an outsourced movement, depending on the quality, price point,and type of watch.


    My advice would be buy what you like and what you are comfortable wearing. The big watch preference has been around for quite a while now. I occasionally hear people say the trend will or is moving toward watches that are not so large. But that remains to be seen. There are still lots of large watches out there and new ones being released each year. Like anything if the trend strongly toward larger watches prices on smaller to normal sizes will remain depressed. It can represent a bargain for some buyers, but like anything they shouldn't buy with the idea they will see an increase in value soon or possibly ever. It depends on what buyers want in the future and there are never any guarantees. Buy what you like, and if values stay the same you won't be disappointed and you will have something you like, and should values increase well that's just an added benefit.
     
  5. Dino944

    Dino944 Well-Known Member

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    I think you took the part about chicks digging their watches a bit too seriously... may be some truth there, but I thought it was a bit of having fun and joking around.

    As for car and watch auctions, while they are indicators of price and desirability, there can be big variations, and car have certain factors that affect their auction estimates and prices.

    As for variations, Antiquorum just sold a pump pusher steel exotic/Paul Newman dial Daytona for roughly 3 times its estimate or about $215,000 IIRC correctly. Whether it was a few insane collectors that got into a bidding war, and someone grossly over paid, or whether values will head there remains to be seen. It's a nice watch but I think the guy grossly overpaid ( I'd prefer a PN dial Daytona with screw down pushers anyway).

    Perhaps ive read you automobile auction a bit too seriously, however i would note car auctions differ from watch auctions in that people are often searching out the dream car of their youth. So as certain generations of buyers reach a point where they have disposable fun money, interest and prices drastically increase in various vintages of cars. I'm not really sure this has really been seen or has been sited by many collectors as to why they have bought a particular watch. In addition, as the generation of people that saw Duesenbergs as the ultimate automobile have died off, prices dropped significantly. Whether that will happen with some watches in the future who knows.
     
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  6. ahdaeeeee

    ahdaeeeee Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that. What you said is true, the reason people prefer in house movement is because it is more exclusive, I mean I can say that for me. Nonetheless, that does not make the Portuguese an inferior watch. What's your take on the Portuguese Chrono?
     
  7. apropos

    apropos Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't it be hilarious/awesome if I was a chick? :eek:

    Nah, you guys are right, I totally misjudged that one. RogerP, with regards to the "perpetual scoffing disapproval", you're lucky I left my monocle and cane at home today so it's actually more like "annual scoffing disapproval" actually. (terrible WIS joke) :slayer:


    Oh, I only used the E type as an example because it's relatively well known, and given it was produced in relatively large numbers, rarity becomes less of an factor influencing price.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  8. katastrofa

    katastrofa Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    My first "real" watch: Muhle Glashutte Germanika V.
     
  9. marvin100

    marvin100 Well-Known Member

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    Good lookin out! Wear it in g.h. &c.
     
  10. Belligero

    Belligero Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely. It brings to mind a recent post on TZ-UK in response to someone's lament about being "bored with watches" — a first-world problem if ever there was one.


    Just buying watches and taking pics to show off to like-minded individuals is pretty shallow. Let's face it, your only input in that situation is money.
    Vintage watches, learning about watch movements and the chance of a coup at an antiques market/boot sale is the only thing that has kept me interested over time.
    Conspicuous consumption of expensive baubles is not a hobby and is pretty meaningless in reality.

    I'll add consideration of design principles to that list. I find Dino's writing particularly illuminating in this regard, as his approach to watches is based on history and design fundamentals. The recent posts on originality and lack of interest in "homage" watches clearly articulated this mindset, and provide insight that's unmistakably the product of considerable deliberation and a well-developed sense of discernment.

    Watches do become a bit boring without this broader context, just like every other category of stuff. In fact, the learning can be more satisfying than the actual ownership experience, as the majority of experienced watch/clothing/car/motorcycle/audio/coffee/camera/etc. nuts can tell you. For me, the part that truly engages is trying to understand the elements that constitute a quality design, much more so than simply possessing the object itself. You certainly don't need to own a watch to make meaningful contributions to this type of discussion.

    The more you learn about enduring and well-appreciated design of any type, the more you discover how much the principles are transferable in both the concrete and the abstract sense — that's the "aha!" bit.

    Edited for following reason: "The only grammar Nazi you want to see in a thread is yourself."
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
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  11. RogerP

    RogerP Well-Known Member

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    Dino has provided a comprehensive answer to that one. IWC is certainly using more in-house movements than they did 10 or 20 years ago, but a number of models still use third party movements. Such watches tend to sit at the more afforable end of the IWC scale and may seem a relative bargain in that context, but can suffer in a comparative value assessment with far less expensive watches from many other brands using essentially the same movements. While it's true that a watch is more than its movement, in the context of mechanical watches there is no other single element that holds greater importance.

    My comment about comparative accuracy was made in the context of a discussion of the well known accuracy issues surrounding IWC's 7-day movement. Odds are that an IWC equipped with a basic third party movement (such as the 7750-powered Portuguese Chrono) will do better in terms of timekeeping than one equipped with that more costly in-house caliber.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  12. Flake

    Flake Well-Known Member

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    OEM Omega black croc deployant.
     
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  13. rnguy001

    rnguy001 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Roger is right. My IWC Galapagos (valjoux chrono), was more accurate than either my in house IWC 7 day models..



     
  14. ant702

    ant702 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  15. Flake

    Flake Well-Known Member

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  16. no frills

    no frills Well-Known Member

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    Yes, absolutely agree with this.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
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  17. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    A few things to keep in mind.

    Generally, you would never expect a long power reserve movement, such as the 7-days 5001, to be as precise as a movement with a regular power reserve. Why? Because the long power reserve is driven by an extra-long mainspring, or more than one mainsprings that must be switched between using a transmission. In the first case, isochronism error becomes a big problem, as there is an exaggerated difference in tension when the mainspring is fully wound versus unwound. In the second case, you get "lumpier" results and introduce added mechanical complication and future maintenance challenges. Most modern long power reserve movements use the multiple mainspring solution. The single mainspring solution is mechanically more elegant, but makes regulation very challenging due to isochronism error. In the instance of the 5001, I suspect the single mainspring solution was absolutely necessary since it is an automatic movement (I believe it remains the only automatic long power reserve movement in existence).

    Anyway, isochronism error is the problem faced by the 7-days 5001. To regulate the movement optimally, the watchmaker must account for how it is likely to be worn. If worn everyday, it will stay fully-wound and the watchmaker will bias the regulation toward high amplitude. If it will only be worn every few days, and the mainspring stays in a more relaxed state with less tension, he will have to regulate it for more moderate amplitude. Anyway, that's why you can get such wildly variable timekeeping with the 5001 Portuguese. You need to tell your watchmaker how you wear your watch in order for it to be correctly regulated. Also, if you change the way you wear it frequently, it will be near impossible to regulate it that well.

    Is this a flaw with the movement? Arguably. However, I like the single long mainstream approach and think it is at least a more innovative and elegant one. Originally it was thought that they could overcome isochronism error by simply never letting the mainspring fully unwind (there is a cutoff point)--that is why you get 7 days as opposed to 8 or 9. Yet, that clearly didn't do the trick.

    High-end watches like the 5001 are all about heritage, design, and horological interest. I find that I care much less about accuracy/precision when I understand the movement better, including why it was designed the way it was, what its advantages are, and what trade-offs had to be made. The truth is, there is no other movement that does exactly what the 5001's does, and it was designed specifically for application in the first ground-up modern Portuguese. That's a story. It's a "pure-bred" watch. Hence, despite its temperamental nature, it will likely always retain value and desirability. Like a Ferrari.

    For certain other watches, an in-house movement is not as important. Take Panerai, for example. Why? Because Panerai was not originally a manufacture. Until recently, they had always used ebauches from outside sources. So, it really doesn't damage the purity of a Panerai to not be in-house. It's just not part of the story.

    However, IWC, along with a handful of others (Patek, JLC, Audemars, Vacheron, Rolex, etc.), were the only manufactures to survive the quartz revolution intact and continuously produce in-house mechanical movements. As such, they hold a certain pedigree other brands don't, and it will always matter to collectors whether their watches have in-house movements. Patek/Audemars/Vacheron famously relied on the very high-grade Lemania chronograph ebauche for decades. Yet, over the past few years, Patek has striven to bring chronograph design in-house. That is a very costly move and no accident. It's a matter of reputation.

    Though various versions of the Portuguese have not always used in-house movements, the original Portuguese always did, and was special for the size of the movement it contained. So, it's arguable that for any Portuguese to stand up to collector expectations, it must have an in-house, pocket watch-sized movement. The prices on the secondary market are demonstrative.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
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  18. apropos

    apropos Well-Known Member

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    Bloody spectacular post.

    I will add 2 more things to this:

    1. another solution which allows for greater power reserve via a longer mainspring and compensates for the isynchonism error as the longer mainspring unwinds is to add a fusee-and-chain system. The fusee-and-chain system is basically a chain wound around the barrel and another pyramidal spindle. The spindle is designed so that it compensates for the reduced pull as the mainspring unwinds. I consider this a particularly elegant solution, but it is technically challenging to implement well, which explains why it is found only in $$$$$ watches. See below image if my terrible explanation has left you more lost than before reading my post (mainspring barrel is on the right):

    [​IMG]

    2. yet another solution is decreasing the beat frequency of the balance wheel, but this brings with it a whole other set of problems - the slow oscillating balance wheel now becomes more susceptible to external shock and changes in position, compromising the accuracy of the watch. A recently released watch has a particularly slow beat rate and a massive balance wheel. In theory this means more inertia, which should negate the aforementioned weaknesses. Whether it is successful or not is still up for debate, but even in this new watch the purpose of implementing the slow beat was not an increased power reserve, but (apparently) more proof of concept that accurate extremely slow beat movements are feasible.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  19. Belligero

    Belligero Well-Known Member

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    I'm all for sweating the details when it comes to this stuff, but wasn't the goal of using a pocketwatch movement in the original ref. 325 Portuguese to ensure a more accurate/precise watch; something akin to a marine chronometer for the wrist? The watch was supposed to be all about timekeeping performance.

    All mechanical movements face the challenge of ensuring isochronism — and most have far less internal volume to work with. Leaving aside the question of what the point of having an extra-long power reserve combined with automatic winding actually is, an oversized-but-erratic movement is inconsistent with the original Portuguese's intent, and seems like a bit of a styling exercise to me. It succeeds in that aspect at least; it's easily the best-looking of IWC's current range and it's a cool watch.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
  20. mafoofan

    mafoofan Well-Known Member

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    The fusee-chain solution is not only super-expensive and exotic, but exceptionally difficult to service. It's pretty much relegated to watches with a $100k+ price tag, without any other complications. At least, that is what Lange charged for the fusee-chain Richard Lange.

    The original 5001 movement was a classic slow-beat movement, at 18k beats per hour. When they changed to a screwed balance, they sped it up to 21.6k beats per hour--a little bit faster, but still slow compared to the standard 28.8 beats per hour. The magnified effect of beat error is a theoretical issue, but I'm not sure it matters in real-life usage. Precision will be exponentially more influenced by how you keep your watch wound.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2013
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