The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Brei

[Belligero]



Quote: Maybe the bezel isn't actualy the widest part? I'm not wearing my Daytona at the moment, but I kind of remember the side of the case is very rounded, not flat as on a Sub/GMT, and I think the case side at its widest point actually protrudes slightly beyond the bezel, while on the Sub/GMT the bezel protrudes a bit beyond the case (which has flat sides). Take a look at the photos below. The watch appears to rest on the case side (as evidenced by the small shadow between the bezel and the book particularly under the number 80 on the bezel). If the bezel was the widest part of the watch, wider than the case, I would think it would make actual contact with the book.

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!

Now look at this photo. Not quite the same angle in the photo, but it appears to be resting on its bezel. One more example of a Daytona where the bezel does not appear to be touching the book thats under it.

Not 100% conclusive, but maybe those of you wearing a Daytona today can take a closer look at the sides of the case and or take some photos.

It's because it's tilted. When held 90° to a straight edge, you can see that the bezel is exactly the same diameter as the case. No camera with me at the moment, unfortunately, but I can get some science-ey photos using a caliper later. I mentioned my nerd-ish tendencies earlier, yes?

 

[dddrees]

It's because it's tilted. When held 90° to a straight edge, you can see that the bezel is exactly the same diameter as the case. No camera with me at the moment, unfortunately, but I can get some science-ey photos using a caliper later. I mentioned my nerd-ish tendencies earlier, yes?

I would agree.

The bezel on the Sub does in fact stick out further from it's case however.

 

[Dino944]

I thought about the tilt. I look forward to your results with calipers. Also, maybe you could take a photo from the side with bracelet hanging down, and dial facing upward so we can see a profile of the edge of the bezel and where it sits in relation to the case side (without the crown/pushers).

 

[johanm]



 Congrats on your 116520!  Looks great.  It will be interesting to see if Rolex finally caves and gives those who have posted for a few years about wanting a 42mm sized Daytona what they want.  The problem comes in that, like most companies they probably won't want to spend money to revise the movement, and when you stick a chronograph movement in a case thats larger than what the movement was originally intended for, the subdials give that away because they usually look too close to the center of the dial and the outer areas near the subdials look to empty.  With an engraved bezel they can' t really cheat and throw a tychometer or pulsometer around the outer edge of the dial.

What do you think of speculations about a SS ceramic bezel Daytona? I came across some mockups online and was pretty intrigued.

I do think the market is anticipating some "improvements" for the next Daytona as the secondary market for SS 116520s is tanking. Looking at rolexforums and Timezone, you see BNIB new serial, open warranty examples going for about $11-11.5k, LNIB with warranty for $10-10.5k, with new listings every day. Could not have imagined this % drop below retail when I was considering a Daytona in 2008-2009.

 

[Dino944]

What do you think of speculations about a SS ceramic bezel Daytona? I came across some mockups online and was pretty intrigued.

I do think the market is anticipating some "improvements" for the next Daytona as the secondary market for SS 116520s is tanking. Looking at rolexforums and Timezone, you see BNIB new serial, open warranty examples going for about $11-11.5k, LNIB with warranty for $10-10.5k, with new listings every day. Could not have imagined this % drop below retail when I was considering a Daytona in 2008-2009.

Hi Johan,

I'm not truly in love with the rose gold version with ceramic bezel. If they built a SS version, I'd hope it would have a bezel more like on the original manual winds, whereby its an insert set into a metal holder. Whether Rolex will do it, who knows. There is always lots of speculation and only Rolex knows what its plans are.

Rolex only makes a profit from original sales, not from the used market so the secondary market is largely irrelevant for them. It only factors in that the idea that at one time you could buy a Daytona and flip it the same day caused people to buy it even if they really didn't need or want a chronograph. However that helped create interest in the watch from would be speculators and often kept these watches out of the hands of people that really wanted to owned one. As for the Daytona having tanked, its only partially true... in that you can't buy one and flip it for a profit the next day. It still has excellent resale value. Do we consider Submariners and GMT Masters failures because for years you could always walk into an ADs and find them in the case and if you bought it, and sold it the next day it would sustain some depreciation?

We have come to expect that Daytonas would always sell for over list price on the secondary market, but that was changed with an economic downturn around 2008, Rolex has steadily increased its price (to cut out middlemen/speculators...if I were making something, I'd want to max out on the profit rather than leave it to middlemen), and the watch has been in production now for 12+ years so there is a good supply in the used market. We forget that until the early 90s, Daytonas (which had been in production since around 1962/63) were really not popular, were heavily discounted, and anyone that bought them did so to wear them, not because it was easy flip for a profit.

I know that in some parts of the world Daytonas are still difficult to locate. So on some level it really depends where you live. Now we see far more people posting that "They got the call" (from their AD). So I think for true collectors its been a good thing that they are easier to obtain, sadly prices are much higher but only because they were always grossly underpriced. It will be interesting to see what changes if any are shown at Basel.

 

[no frills]

I do think the market is anticipating some "improvements" for the next Daytona as the secondary market for SS 116520s is tanking. Looking at rolexforums and Timezone, you see BNIB new serial, open warranty examples going for about $11-11.5k, LNIB with warranty for $10-10.5k, with new listings every day. Could not have imagined this % drop below retail when I was considering a Daytona in 2008-2009.

Fascinating pricing. As I mentioned a few pages back, I'm looking at the 116520 and my AD is offering me one for $12K. Not so bad given these secondary market options, 'no?

 

[Dino944]

Fascinating pricing. As I mentioned a few pages back, I'm looking at the 116520 and my AD is offering me one for $12K. Not so bad given these secondary market options, 'no?

Hi Frill,

Johan, I think is lamenting that there is any price drop at all. Years ago Daytonas were grossly underpriced, and the supply particularly when they were relying on Zenith for El Primero movement to modify was far short of demand. Hence on an average day back in say 1995/1996 you could by a steel 16520 Daytona for say $3850 (before the the next price increase when it went to $4,350) and you could sell it the same day for $7,500-$8,000. You could even wear it for 4-5 years, get it serviced and sell it for nearly twice what you paid. Then as prices approached the $5,500 to $6,000 in the used market you could sell it for $8,500-9,000. When I got one of the early 116520s in 2001 for $6,000 I got an insurance appraisal from a gray market shop (since list price was not its accurate value), the owner of the shop had not seen one in person yet and told me they are selling for $12,000, and wrote the appraisal accordingly.

Once list priced got to $9,000-9,500 fewer people could afford them, they had been in production for several years and then with the economic slump of 2008/09 prices got soft on the secondary market and people couldn't flip them the same day for a profit. Still resale is quite good, you can't buy a Sub, GMT, Milgauss, Explorer etc and sell it the same or next day without experiencing some depreciation.

 

[no frills]

Hi Frill,

Johan, I think is lamenting that there is any price drop at all. Years ago Daytonas were grossly underpriced, and the supply particularly when they were relying on Zenith for El Primero movement to modify was far short of demand. Hence on an average day back in say 1995/1996 you could by a steel 16520 Daytona for say $3850 (before the the next price increase when it went to $4,350) and you could sell it the same day for $7,500-$8,000. You could even wear it for 4-5 years, get it serviced and sell it for nearly twice what you paid. Then as prices approached the $5,500 to $6,000 in the used market you could sell it for $8,500-9,000. When I got one of the early 116520s in 2001 for $6,000 I got an insurance appraisal from a gray market shop (since list price was not its accurate value), the owner of the shop had not seen one in person yet and told me they are selling for $12,000, and wrote the appraisal accordingly.

Once list priced got to $9,000-9,500 fewer people could afford them, they had been in production for several years and then with the economic slump of 2008/09 prices got soft on the secondary market and people couldn't flip them the same day for a profit. Still resale is quite good, you can't buy a Sub, GMT, Milgauss, Explorer etc and sell it the same or next day without experiencing some depreciation.

That's an amazing history of the resulting equilbrium price given fluctuating supply and demand.

Yeah, I don't think I'll be focused on resale value per se. I'm looking for a good, reliable, tough chronograph, great workmanship and aesthetics. I don't want to be a sucker and overpay for it, so I'll try to get one for a good price given attendant support (warranty, relationship with AD or grey market dealer, etc) - but I intend to use it and enjoy it.

 

[no frills]

Hi Frill,

I do like this nick, given my handle!

 

[Dino944]

I do like this nick, given my handle!

Seemed better than cutting it down to "No."

That's an amazing history of the resulting equilbrium price given fluctuating supply and demand.

Yeah, I don't think I'll be focused on resale value per se. I'm looking for a good, reliable, tough chronograph, great workmanship and aesthetics. I don't want to be a sucker and overpay for it, so I'll try to get one for a good price given attendant support (warranty, relationship with AD or grey market dealer, etc) - but I intend to use it and enjoy it.

Yea...I got into Daytonas just as they became popular and so I've seen the changes in price both retail and in the used market.

I bought mine to enjoy and if they've gone up in value since I bought them, thats great, but if they didn't they would just be a great watch that I enjoy.

My Dad bought a Daytona in 2009 (when the list price was $9,500) and with some negotiating he got a 5% discount from an AD. Although that AD lost its franchise about 2 years later. Rolex seems to be taking away Rolex accounts from smaller independent dealers that used to discount and opening accounts with big chains that refuse to discount. So wishing you luck with discounts. In the end, even on pieces like Daytonas that I bought new for full retail, eventually the prices went so far beyond what I paid that it has carried the prices of my now pre-owned watches well beyond what I paid (thats just some icing on the cake). However, they would still be great watches that I've enjoyed wearing even if they were worth a bit less than I paid, which happens with most brands.

 

[stafa]

Thinking of going Grand Seiko for my first "real" piece. I was thinking of a 116200 Datejust, but the finishing on the GS is as good (if not better) than a Rolex, plus it'll be significantly more low-key. Thoughts? Has anyone here handled or own a GS?
.

 

[johanm]



Seemed better than cutting it down to "No." Yea...I got into Daytonas just as they became popular and so I've seen the changes in price both retail and in the used market. I bought mine to enjoy and if they've gone up in value since I bought them, thats great, but if they didn't they would just be a great watch that I enjoy. My Dad bought a Daytona in 2009 (when the list price was $9,500) and with some negotiating he got a 5% discount from an AD. Although that AD lost its franchise about 2 years later. Rolex seems to be taking away Rolex accounts from smaller independent dealers that used to discount and opening accounts with big chains that refuse to discount. So wishing you luck with discounts. In the end, even on pieces like Daytonas that I bought new for full retail, eventually the prices went so far beyond what I paid that it has carried the prices of my now pre-owned watches well beyond what I paid (thats just some icing on the cake). However, they would still be great watches that I've enjoyed wearing even if they were worth a bit less than I paid, which happens with most brands.

Dino - appreciate the analysis on Daytona pricing above. I was just speculating that they might be harder to move right now due to anticipation of the new iteration after Basel. I think you're right that the market has settled on $10-10.5k as a fair price for a mint/LNIB version. On a separate note, I think that mint/LNIB going rate is a good benchmark for assessing value and depreciation for any watch, as it helps cut through the distribution/pricing games the brands are increasingly playing, as many/most of the LNIB versions are leaked onto the grey market by ADs unable or afraid to officially discount.

Thinking of going Grand Seiko for my first "real" piece. I was thinking of a 116200 Datejust, but the finishing on the GS is as good (if not better) than a Rolex, plus it'll be significantly more low-key. Thoughts? Has anyone here handled or own a GS? .

I'm a big fan of GS and would pick the version you posted over the 116200 or the 41mm equivalent smooth bezel DJ. Over any of those I would personally choose the beautiful and classic 116234 36mm DJ with fluted bezel and either jubilee bracelet or croc strap.

 

[lexmann]



Thinking of going Grand Seiko for my first "real" piece. I was thinking of a 116200 Datejust, but the finishing on the GS is as good (if not better) than a Rolex, plus it'll be significantly more low-key. Thoughts? Has anyone here handled or own a GS? .

I only own a quartz Grand Seiko because I am not really into those manual winding, how many jewels,...One thing I can say is the finishing on GS is BETTER than a Rolex (compared to my friend's Explorer II). The reason why I like GS is that this line is very subtle, but of very high quality.

 

[Newcomer]



Thinking of going Grand Seiko for my first "real" piece. I was thinking of a 116200 Datejust, but the finishing on the GS is as good (if not better) than a Rolex, plus it'll be significantly more low-key. Thoughts? Has anyone here handled or own a GS? .

I have handled some recently at an AD, and Grand Seiko really is an absolutely gorgeous line. If you like the styling, I do not think there is a better brand in the price range. The finishing is spectacular, and I greatly enjoy the 'direction' of the timepieces. GS strives for a well built, sturdy, accurate, simple timepiece. Personally, I would take that over a DJ. But that is just me. I also think that I would get the SBGA011, the "Snowflake," if you will. Also, get ready for the "just a Seiko" comments ad infinitum. Just a word of advice though, supposedly servicing them is a bit of a pain **********. You will have to send the watch back to Japan for servicing, and I have heard it is fairly expensive. However, I have also heard good things about their servicing, which is more than I can say for what I have heard about the Swiss competition. Also, this story is a nice read. Anyone around here want to be my "dad:" http://www.philippinewatchclub.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22525

 

[Warren G.]

I would go with the Snowflake.

Not my pics.