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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Part two (Rolex, Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet, Jaeger LeCoultre,

Discussion in 'Classic Menswear' started by mimo, Feb 12, 2016.

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  1. robw

    robw Well-Known Member

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    Agree completely. The only Speedmaster (probably the only Omega) I like is the pro. There have been and continue to be too many different editions and models named Speedmaster that have not been consistent to the name or appearance with different movements and functions all of which have diluted the name.

    Between the Daytona and Speedmaster(not even sure which one you mean which is part of the problem, see above) I really don't see any comparison. They are just different watches in quality, workmanship and just the way they feel. Kind of like asking why most people on SF would prefer an Isaia or Kiton blue suit over a Suit Supply blue suit. Nothing wrong with Suit Supply but just not the same.

    I would point out that Omega is not, and doesn't try to play, in the same league as Rolex. In fact the NYT had an interview with Omega's CEO yesterday who stated the average price for its watches is 7k and they have moved up a lot but plan to stay there. Nothing wrong with Omega but that is just the way it is.

    It all comes down to what you like and are happy with. You prefer a Speedmaster? Then get one and wear it and enjoy it in good health.



     
  2. tigerpac

    tigerpac Well-Known Member

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    In re: Daytona vs. Speedy

    Other than the already excellent discussion, personally, a lot of it comes down to aesthetics, movements and cases. On the simplest level I like the look of the Daytona more than the Speedy. Diving in a little further, you have a pretty big gap in the quality of the modern movements if you go with the 'traditional' Speedy vs the 4130. Now if you go with a 'modern' speedy that gap mostly disappears as the 9300 series of movements by Omega have been well regarded but then the cases they use are so thick that they don't interest me.

    I went through the process of comparing the Omega offerings vs the Daytona recently as I've described in bits and pieces over the past few months. I came to like the look and the movement of the Grey Side of the Moon, it is probably my favorite modern speedy. And while the GSOM cut the gap between the aesthetics and movement; the thickness and overall size sorta turned me off a bit.
     
  3. ktown

    ktown Well-Known Member

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    Just got the BLNR yesterday. Maiden voyage today. First Rolex.

    [​IMG]

    Along with my other watch.

    [​IMG]
     
    14 people like this.
  4. rnguy001

    rnguy001 Well-Known Member

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    I love the DSOM and the GSOM, but Omega really should've stopped there. Now there are like 6 different versions including the meteorite dial one. Just like others have mentioned, too many variations/editions on a theme kind of ruined the specialness of it.

    but to that end, I think you can get a GSOM for far less than MSRP ;)

    R

     
  5. robw

    robw Well-Known Member

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    Very nice! Enjoy
     
  6. robw

    robw Well-Known Member

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    I just voted as well. I am not sure if the watches shown are actually the ones that might get produced, but I dislike fake aging/patina on new watches. Kind of a deal breaker for me.

    Will be interesting to see how it goes though.




     
  7. Dino944

    Dino944 Well-Known Member

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    Looks great congrats and enjoy! [​IMG]
     
  8. UnFacconable

    UnFacconable Well-Known Member

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    First let me say that I don't disagree with you overall and even as a speedy owner and fan I wouldn't consider them superior to the Daytona and as many have said they are really just birds of a different feather. I still like the daytona and wasn't cross-shopping when I got my speedy. If anything it was speedy over one of the tudor heritage chronos for me and I'm very happy with my decision on so many levels.

    The thing is, I find you ordinarily extremely fastidious about details so I'm curious as to what is informing the quoted opinion above? Why is it that you think the inclusion of one plastic part (made of delrin which is a "space age" polymer) is considered cutting corners? It strains credibility to think that Omega has gone to such measures to replace one miniscule metallic part with a self-lubricating synthetic one to save money when they could easily have chosen not to add rhodium plating (as they did in the 861->1861 update) or taken other much measures to reduce cost. Are there other plastic parts besides the delrin brake that you are aware of?

    And might not it be true, to the contrary, that the delrin part is better because it's both self-lubricating (/hroi) and gentler with the wheel it interacts with and that the move was very much substance over form? Now I'm not a watchmaker so I don't know if metal or delrin is better for the chrono brake and as I recall Archer is skeptical that it makes a difference because from what he's seen the part rarely has any issues in the movement, but I still don't see how there could be any cost savings from replacing one miniscule part out of hundreds.

    If Rolex were to change a Daytona part to plastic they would probably come up with a new name like OysterPolymer and introduce it as a monumental breakthrough at Baselworld.

    Most of what you wrote is clearly a fact or an opinion, but the quoted statement to me is an indication of bias, again unless you have some evidence that the world doesn't appear to be aware of that the delrin part is in fact "cutting corners" or that there are other plastic parts in the cal 1861. By way of example, my previous paragraph is something a Rolex hater would say.


    Also, to bring this back around to watches we appreciate - I was able to make it to the RSC yesterday and got my Explorer resized so I can wear it now, yay!!!
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. firenze_rob

    firenze_rob Well-Known Member

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    You can't trust people mate. You really can't trust people.

    [​IMG]
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Belligero

    Belligero Well-Known Member

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    I can offer a bit of insight on this courtesy of my watchmaker drinking buddy. While the Delrin brake is probably functionally superior to its metallic counterpart, that's not the main reason that cost-cutting is associated with the progression of the Speedmaster's movement. The big thing was going from column-wheel to cam-switched construction for the sake of cheaper, more efficient manufacturing when they replaced the cal. 321 with the cal. 861, as well as the newer movement's less-elaborate bridge treatment and change to a flat hairspring from an overcoil one. They're all good, reliable movements, though.

    By the way, he finds that some of the measures that reduced manufacturing cost also offered some improvements from his perspective, such as reducing the number of different screw sizes and types to a slightly-more-manageable level as the movements developed.

    Also, enjoy the Explorer! Nice to get it done in time for the weekend.
    :cheers:

    Here's the best article I've yet seen on affordable electric coffee grinders: http://thesweethome.com/reviews/the-best-coffee-grinder/

    Personally, I love my Mazzer Mini-E and it's been flawless in the four years that I've had it so far. I have a Lido 3 on the way as a brew and travel grinder, so the Mazzer will soon be on espresso duty only. A high-quality manual unit is definitely worth considering for home use; you get better grind quality for the buck, and they're quieter and (generally) more compact. Plus you can easily take it to the cabin or whatever. [​IMG]

    A tip: as a permanent kitchen resident, it's worth getting one that looks OK and doesn't make a shrill, ear-piercing racket during use from the start.
    A bonus tip: try not to strip the gears and burn the motor out by attempting to put dried coconut through a burr grinder, as my buddy's wife did with his. :p


    I briefly considered the ROK too, but everything I came across suggested that the Lido 2 or 3 is the preferable hand-cranker to have without going too insanely over-the-top. If space is a concern, it's worth noting that the Lido also occupies far less of it . Other quality options worth checking out while you're at it include ones from Commandante, Knock, Rosco, and king-of-all-manual-grinders HG One. :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
    2 people like this.
  11. SteveH35

    SteveH35 Well-Known Member

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    This GP has become my go-to watch and near daily wearer if I don't need ruggedness. I wanted to dress it down and give it a more vintage look. Custom ordered a grained leather strap from Camille Fournet which I received this morning. What do you think? I probably would have gone one shade darker if I could do it over again, but it's still pretty cool! What do you guys think? The interior lining is a cool blue rubberized leather material for summer.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    13 people like this.
  12. mimo

    mimo Well-Known Member

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    It looks great, and the strap will darken by itself over time. Otherwise a tiny touch of shoe cream could take it down a shade.
     
    1 person likes this.
  13. Belligero

    Belligero Well-Known Member

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    ^
    I think it's a great-looking combination now, and that it'll be even better as the strap develops some character and darkens naturally with use. Don't baby it!
     
  14. robw

    robw Well-Known Member

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    Looks good but I think that watch needs an alligator or croc strap. Could have done the same contrast stitching to dress it down if you wanted. Also would have gone a little darker. Still a great great watch.
     
  15. BLAUGRANA

    BLAUGRANA Well-Known Member

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    Great stuff as always! I was wondering if you could elaborate on the resale values though. Specifically, what were the approximate MSRPs of both the 16520 and 116520? I'm actually quite ignorant as regards the Daytona compared to other watches and have sort of... ignored it based on some of the prices I've seen for vintage references. I tried to find the MSRP for the 16520 and I couldn't find it. Prices now seem to range quite a bit as well regardless of condition, but then I find "mint" doesn't equate to what I personally think it would/should.

    I feel the same about purchasing a watch. I am still finding watches that I like out there but consistently come back to either the same watch or nothing as it does need to really pull me in and I have to consider my budget. Great thing about it is I think I appreciate and love what I already have even more.

    I wouldn't mind seeing it on a brown strap just to see how it comes off, but I'm fine with the navy strap.

    To @Dino944 's point earlier, they seem to do far too many Speedmasters, the majority of which I wouldn't even consider. That said, doing so many can mean that you can get one or two right from time to time. The FOIS is the one new Speedmaster I would buy and this looks based off that in a lot of way. It's got the same hands, same size (a great thing) and probably also the use again of sapphire crystal which is usually a "no-no" for purists but which I prefer as it seems to make the watch look more polished. Of course Omega had to go with the lollipop seconds hand which I can see them milking a bit going forward since the Spectre Seamaster.

    Perhaps price and popularity are at play. Daytonas go for notably more from I can tell and the Submariner seems to be one of the most popular watches ever.

    Congratulations! Enjoy it!
     
  16. BLAUGRANA

    BLAUGRANA Well-Known Member

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    I think it looks great. Definitely a "vintage" look as I've seen a lot of vintage watches on a similar strap. Hodinkee sells a similar one and it looks like one of their best by a long shot. I also think you nailed the color choice. Darker would have been a poor choice in my opinion and as others have noted it will likely darken over time. Looks great right now though.

    EDIT: And I just noticed it's a minute repeater. [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
  17. Dino944

    Dino944 Well-Known Member

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    Oh how I do love a good "Backhanded compliment."

    I am a bit unclear about your question. Are asking whether the statement of mine you that you quoted is solely on my own opinion/bias? If that is your question, the answer is no, it is not based solely on my opinion/bias. I can't take credit for that opinion as I am not a watchmaker or journalist. However, it was the opinion of a watchmaker (with several decades of experience working on watches...but trying to give you the benefit of the doubt maybe he is a more traditional guy), and in an article I read several years ago. Those opinions have shaped my opinion on that issue.

    Those opinions were expressed to me several years ago, and as with anything involving science and mechanical items, there can always be new discoveries and changes of opinion. So perhaps if I read a few newer articles on the Speedy Pro or talked with other watchmakers stating the use of plastic is a significant improvement, my own opinion would change.

    Being skeptical something makes a difference isn't the same as definitely saying something does or does not make a difference. It is an opinion. In addition, beyond the plastic vs. metal movement part issue, the movement in cal 4130 is still far more advanced than what is in the Speedy Pro (which isn't using a column wheel in the current movement).

    I have no idea what you are getting at with your Rolex Oysterpolymer statement, or your stating that is something a Rolex hater would say.

    Your statement "Again unless you have some evidence that the world doesn't appear to be aware of " seems rather condescending.

    If as you say, you are truly happy with your decision on so many levels, that is all that matters. I've said numerous times that the Speedy Pro is a good watch, and its the only Omega that interests me. The Speedy Pro is watch I could definitely own in addition to a Daytona, but it wouldn't be my choice in place of one.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2016
    1 person likes this.
  18. Dino944

    Dino944 Well-Known Member

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    Really beautiful and I love the texturing of the strap! It should age beautifully!!!

    I've read that the earliest 16520s came in at around $2,400. When I started buying Daytonas started looking at Daytonas in 1993/94 a steel one was $3800, then it went to $4350, then went to $5,100, then $5,500, and the last of them were $6,000. When the 116520 came out it was the same price as the outgoing model $6,000, then it went to $6,500...and went up bit by bit to its current level.

    I got into them sort of on the early end of things, and I never paid over list price. Grays and some ADs were getting premiums of anywhere from $2,000 over MSRP to double the MSRP. There were some people who would buy one at list from an AD, and then flip it a few hours later to make a tidy profit. So some AD's would require a deposit to weed out less serious buyers, and some would only sell the person a SS Daytona if they had made other big ticket purchases...buy a gold Day Date and you can then buy a SS Daytona.

    In terms of pricing being all over the place, that is very true of 16520s. To a casual observer they look the same. However, there are numerous differences over the years...making some rarer than others and more valuable. Early ones had the word "Cosmograph" separate from the rest of the text, or what collectors call"Floating." The bezels also were calibrated differently going only to 200 units rather than 400 and had all brushed bracelets, and did not have the safety latch/oyster lock clasps. Some early 16520 Daytonas used porcelain dials. There were also changes in the writing/font of the subdials, and some have dials where the color changed (and people pay more for that oddity), and then a change in lum, and the addition of SEL bracelets.

    With 116520s, there were changes in hands, changes to the movement, changes to the clasp, the Rolex name and serial got added around the inner bezel area, the lum changed, etc. For now the market hasn't strongly distinguished between these differences other than people paying more for the newest ones with a warranty.

    That'st just sort of a short summary. There are guys with sites dedicated to the various distinctions and who have tried to collect one if each variation. Hope that helps. Cheers!
     
    1 person likes this.
  19. cyc wid it

    cyc wid it Well-Known Member

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    More Breguet numerals :inlove:
     
  20. no frills

    no frills Well-Known Member

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    Checking in to read the discussions here in TWAT v2.0 while waiting for my little ones. #TGIF

    [​IMG]
     
    2 people like this.

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