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The value of work

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Styleman, Sep 3, 2004.

  1. Styleman

    Styleman Well-Known Member

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    I wanted to let Ambulance Chaser take the credit for the improved poll, but it seems that he is not going to make the poll, so I guess I will just say it, this poll is the work of AC, for I question I wished to ask. From the old poll: For thoses who don't have a clue what I am on about see this thread:HERE Lets try and keep things cool this time though - if someone says something you do not agree with, just live with it, that is what the above poll is for.
     
  2. faustian bargain

    faustian bargain Well-Known Member

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    it's a toughie, for me. if i were independently wealthy, i would definitely say that work would be solely something i do because of its intrinsic value.

    however i *have* to work for a living, so i have made compromises that i struggle with all the time, in my mind.

    in my view it takes no small amount of courage to work without significant regard to the money being paid, especially if you have a family counting on you to help support them.

    sadly, i wish i knew more people who love their work.

    /andrew - hasn't decided yet which choice to take in this poll
     
  3. Styleman

    Styleman Well-Known Member

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    Well that is a good point, it is very hard to decide on one over another, because it could be a combination of both.

     
  4. drizzt3117

    drizzt3117 Well-Known Member

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    I think there are other things to consider besides those two points but would lean towards position 2, if I had to make a choice, as I work despite not really having to do so for monetary purposes, but do things that I believe in and are interesting to me.
     
  5. Kai

    Kai Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I would take the meanest nastiest job rather than rely on the largesse of the Government or some other person to take care of me and my family. A guy I know sits at home, unemployed, because he won't take a job that is "beneath him." He's been doing this for about 2 years now, because he can't find a job in his field. His wife works part time, and goes to the blood bank and sells her blood for money so she can support their family. I find it unbelievable that a man could allow such a thing. I would shovel sewage in a toxic waste dump before I allowed such a thing to happen to my family.

    My mother got me my very first job when I was in 2nd grade. I worked in a Florsheim shoe store on Tuesdays and Thursdays, sweeping, cleaning, polishing, etc. I've had some sort of job (paper routes, retail, etc.) almost continuously ever since.

    I've had some really bad jobs in my life. Some of the worst were:

    Installing insulation in commercial buildings in the Arizona heat;
    Cleaning unbelievably foul restrooms and showers and collecting garbage at a state park;
    Working on a landscaping crew;
    Laying asphalt and surfacing tennis courts and tracks;
    Putting up miles and miles of barbed wire fence.
    Dismantling old airplane hangers in the middle of a swamp.

    All of these jobs paid very little. However, they gave me money, a sense of self-reliance, confidence, and a strong desire to go to school and get a job that was more rewarding.

    The ability and willingness to work is, in my opinion, important whether you need the money or not. Even though I now have the ability to give my children everything they want, I make them get jobs and pay for things themselves. I want them to have pride in their accomplishments, and it means more if you have earned something yourself, rather than having it given to you.
    However, I also see nothing wrong with working your way into a job you enjoy, and then taking a well-deserved retirement. I hope to retire early. However, I would also like to have a second career as a teacher or perhaps a prosecutor. These are both honorable professions that I chose not to pursue because of financial reasons. I haven't given up on them entirely, however.

    One recent anecdote regarding work:

    My son and I drove by a crew of men, trying to repair a broken water line. They were knee deep in mud, digging, sweating, clearly not having fun. My son said, "They must be getting paid lots and lots of money because the work they do is so hard." I let him in on the truth that the more fun your job is, the more money you make, and that the nastiest and least fun jobs get paid the least.
     
  6. LabelKing

    LabelKing Well-Known Member

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    Middle of a swamp? Quite.

    I have a distinct penchant for obscure abandoned buildings.
     
  7. Kai

    Kai Well-Known Member

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    Dismantling old airplane hangers in the middle of a swamp.
    Middle of a swamp? Quite. I have a distinct penchant for obscure abandoned buildings.
    Yes. Big metal girder framed hangers. We would climb up, unscrew (or chisel, if they were fused) the fasteners apart, dismantling it from the top down, and then drag the metal onto a truck for salvage. In about a foot of stagnant, standing water. Think mosquitos, think Virginia in the Summer time, think 90 degrees, sun, and high humidity. I was 15 years old, and was getting paid about $30 per day.
     
  8. vero_group

    vero_group Well-Known Member

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    Kai, I have nothing but respect for all the hard work you've done.

    That is another thing one can get from work: respect. Your friend who is sitting around making excuses for himself and allowing his wife to sell her body fluids for money needs to get over himself, act like a real man, and get to work.
     
  9. Steve B.

    Steve B. Well-Known Member

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    Nice to know the ruling class has completely brainwashed the proletariat...
     
  10. vero_group

    vero_group Well-Known Member

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    Steve, you live in San Antonio??? I didn't think there were any liberals in San Antonio, TX.
     
  11. Mike C.

    Mike C. Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure Steve moved to TX to follow in the footsteps of his idol... George Dubya.
     
  12. Steve B.

    Steve B. Well-Known Member

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    Logan: Yeah- they're a few and I'm starting a movement to import more from Austin. Mike: Was thinking of hiking out to Crawford and chaining myself to the gates of the ranch, but I don't think my kids would like bailing me out of jail. I have a conservative(?&#33[​IMG] client from the Bay Area who thinks I'll meet with vigilante justice, so I'm trying to keep a low profile.
     
  13. jharrison

    jharrison Well-Known Member

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    Ditto. Now Steve, I would sincerely appreciate it if you would clarify and expand upon what you said. Certainly you can't support the bum that Kai described, but what do you suggest? Please understand that I'm really trying to understand here, I don't want to flame or troll. Thanks
     
  14. Steve B.

    Steve B. Well-Known Member

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    Mr Harrison:

    To which comment of mine are you referring?
     
  15. Alias

    Alias Well-Known Member

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    I actually like the bookkeeping work I'm doing now, even though it takes a lot of mental stamina (especially near the ends of the months.)

    If it wasn't gratifying, I wouldn't be doing it. I worked jobs that I grew to hate and I'm the kind of person who has a very low b.s. tolerance. All the money in the world wouldn't be enough to make me do something I view as worthless.
     
  16. jharrison

    jharrison Well-Known Member

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    This one...
    Sorry I wasn't more clear. I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or not. If you're serious, please elaborate. Thanks.
     
  17. Steve B.

    Steve B. Well-Known Member

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    So how do I start?

    I think those who are in power- the Bushes AND Kerrys of the world, the industry titans (let's call them the ruling class) have knocked into our brains (let's call us the ever-shrinking middle class, today's proletariat) that it's important to work hard, save, buy a house, make things better for our kids, etc. When with our current governmental system (a republic in theory, but an oligopoly in practice), there's an ever DECREASING chance that we'll get anywhere near where they are, or have any real power to affect change. That 40% of what we earn taken before most of us ever see it goes to support their byzantine bureaucracy and the continued buying and selling of our political system by special interest groups. We've spent 100 billion dollars looking for fictitious weapons of mass destruction in Iraq lining the Bush family and friends' pockets when our kids don't have enough food to eat, enough funding for a proper education, or health insurance. And our jails are full (usually with people who are decidedly NOT White Anglo Saxon and Protestant). And who's over there fighting in Iraq, and who fought in Vietnam? Again NOT members of the ruling class, and particularly not W his own self. BTW I love how Karl Rove (Bush's master of dirty tricks) impugns Kerry's service record through the back door when his man not only didn't go to Vietnam, but was also AWOL from his cupcake stint in the National Guard.

    And they've somehow convinced us- 76% of this poll so far- that there's a moral imperative to it to boot.

    Pretty smart M---F--ers, aren't they?

    Or are we just that stupid???
     
  18. Huntsman

    Huntsman Well-Known Member

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    Well, the 'they' that convinced us of (or at least bothered to state) the moral imperative to working was a guy named Adam Smith, the reputed father of economics, who wrote An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations in 1776. Much of Smith's theory has been disproved or improved, but it still holds that in any system, one produces, consumes, or does some mixture of the two. Therefore if one believes it not imperative to work, one becomes pure consumer, and that which one consumes had to be produced by others. Those 'others' are one's peers in the proletariat (to use your phrasing). So a pure consumer subsists off the sweat of his peers, not of the 'ruling class' -- sure, the 'ruling class' is leeching as much as they can from the proles (to borrow Orwell's phrasing) as well, while they redistribute the production amongst the consumers and the producers themselves. Even though they take their cut, and be it massive, and be there staggering waste and inefficiency, the production is still from the sweat of one's peers in the proletariat. Therefore, I consider it a moral imperative to work so that others in the same position as I can get the maximum benefit possible out of their sweat by not supporting me, regardless of any cut anyone else takes or what they do with it. BTW, U.S. income tax rates had formerly gone up to around 85% in the highest brackets at one time. Regards, Huntsman
     
  19. Alias

    Alias Well-Known Member

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    I fail to see how gaining satisfaction from a job well done equates to the upper class brainwashing us.

    No one brainwashed me into gaining satisfaction from any job I like. You can't rule out the possibility that some people actually enjoy seeing the fruits of their labors, be it money, or as the poll puts it, pride or self-satisfaction.

    Maybe what you're saying is, the harder we work (chasing after that "satisfaction") the bigger the cut the "ruling class" is able to take. Maybe this actually is a factor. Who knows for sure? Maybe there is some kind of political ploy running behind the scenes, but to categorize all people who genuinely do enjoy their work as brainwashed by the government is a gross overgeneralization.
     
  20. vero_group

    vero_group Well-Known Member

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    All this over-analysis of class warfare is a bunch of hooey. Conspiracies exist more in the mind than in reality. It's classic paranoia. If there is indeed a class warfare conspiracy, I don't know if I'm one of those being kept up or one of those being kept down, but either way, no one has ever invited me to one of the conspiracy meetings so that I can be informed and coordinated with others in keeping the other group of people down. Have any of you ever received such an invitation? Was it handed to you by a cloaked figure hiding in the shadows? Somebody clue me in here...
     

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